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Brevator

Is Item Marking really that big of a deal?

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You claim to have rarely seen it, but that's the thing about abandoning parts on purpose: you're not supposed to see it. That's kind of the whole point. 

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I like the marked items.

If someone had the keys or fuse and got ripped early, it was basically game over for everyone else.

Now, it prolongs the game and makes it more exciting as a counselor because you still have a fighting chance.

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6 hours ago, malloymk said:

Yeah. Is it July still though? You don't think that hasn't been tweaked since then?

Or that other changes to mechanics or perks have not tweaked those mechanics as well.

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7 hours ago, Brevator said:

You claim to have rarely seen it, but that's the thing about abandoning parts on purpose: you're not supposed to see it. That's kind of the whole point. 

this is the argument i think is funny. 

you say it happens but people don't see it because you're not supposed to. 

well, if that's the case, how can you verify it's an actual issue? because you're not seeing it either, then. the answer is you can't. no more than i can verify it's not.

here's what i know... after spending hundreds of hours in QP,  I've never heard this behavior called out in lobbies, I've never seen it while playing, I've seen it maybe once in spectator mode and I've definitely never found a part in the middle of nowhere. 

what evidence do you have that this is a real issue that needed to be addressed in such a drastic measure? besides the fact the devs made the change, which could have just as easily been due to an outcry from message board members?

what i HAVE seen since the update? "legit" players using this feature to mark parts on the map for others because they don't feel like picking them up. or players b-lining for parts without being required to communicate with anyone or do any actual work to find it aside from running to its exact location on the map. 

this has been great for earning XP and padding my numbers but for me, it's helped remove tension, made strategy and decision making less important and really eliminated the need to communicate with others. 

and as for this benefiting jason? bullshit. sure, you could camp items and wait for people to come to you but 1. that's a big risk 2. what fun is camping an objective for 20 minutes? 

EDIT: you can still troll the parts. just take 'em to jason's shack or drop them off on an island or a far corner of the map. yeah, you can see them but good luck getting to them. 

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Here's what I know: I've logged hundreds of hours in Quick Play too and have played dozens of matches full of experienced players who could not find a single item during the match. Not a single one. Maybe we'd get lucky and find the gas or a battery, but you can't escape with only one of those. It was happening most on the large versions of Packanack and Higgins Haven, which have more out-of-the-way corners than Crystal Lake, lots of areas to hide stuff where no one will chance upon it by passing through. 

"I've never heard this behavior called out in lobbies". Because it's nearly impossible to prove who is doing it and that they're doing it intentionally. Again, that's kind of the whole point of doing it in the first place.

Just because you think you haven't experienced it (or more accurately, didn't recognize when it was happening) doesn't mean that it wasn't happening. Something is definitely wrong when there are 5 or 6 players communicating with each other who know the maps by heart and can't complete an objective because they can't find an item. 

Obviously the devs felt it was enough of a problem to warrant a change, and if all they did was cater to whiners, they surely would've changed it back by now...

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14 hours ago, Manny1985 said:

People are mostly upset because they cannot grab as Jason from 100 ft away. They just try to hide that as "it's too easy being a counselor" talk.

When could Jason Grab from 100 ft away?    That sounds like someone trying to hide it as " its too hard being a counselor" talk,

 

 

A 100 ft...  Lol?   Was about 4.4 feet.  Now its about 2 feet.  IMO 4-5 feet is the natural grab range of someone of Jasons size.

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9 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

When could Jason Grab from 100 ft away?    That sounds like someone trying to hide it as " its too hard being a counselor" talk,

A 100 ft...  Lol?   Was about 4.4 feet.  Now its about 2 feet.  IMO 4-5 feet is the natural grab range of someone of Jasons size.

Maybe we need some in game rulers so we can finally lay this to rest...

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Look at some of the video's - the length was around 6-8 feet (length of long rug in Higgins).  Actually, if you stretch your arms out and measure from fingertip to fingertip is , on average, your height plus a inch.  If Jason is seven feet his total arm span is 7'1" or 85 inches.  A single arm going forward would be 1/2 of that minus his should to shoulder torso.  Base roughly 1/3.  28" or 2 feet 4 inches.  Granted arms a little longer than torso so we'll add thee inches.  31" or Two feet seven inches. 

HuDawg:  Leaning forward gives you a foot max.  In that case the grab should take place at the end of the move forward and not at button press as someone might not be at the apex of the grab/move forward.  Try it, do what he does which is a slight lean going forward. 

If you want a full lunge grab, then what is at end of lunge gets grabbed, give me a tenth of a second to not be there.  Otherwise we end up like before him grabbing at ridiculous lengths, through shelves, etc.   

Yes, stating Jason's grab is 100' is inaccurate and was grossly misstating the issue to support their point.   But it goes both ways for all the "Jason is ruined" and "everyone escapes every time!" crud I see all over here now. Making a mountain out of a molehill is s.o.p around here. 

Edited by va_ghost
Rebuttal

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10 minutes ago, va_ghost said:

 Actually, if you stretch your arms out and measure from fingertip to fingertip is , on average, your height plus a inch.  If Jason is seven feet his total arm span is 7'1" or 85 inches.  A single arm going forward would be 1/2 of that minus his should to shoulder torso.  Base roughly 1/3.  28" or 2 feet 4 inches.  Granted arms a little longer than torso so we'll add thee inches.  31" or Two feet seven inches. 

 And if you lean forward and reach you will double that 2 feet 7 inches".,    Hell Its more like a 2.5x increase.  So it would be over 4 feet.

 

Which brings us to the real issue that started the whole "GRAB bitch fest" in the 1st place.    That grab animation was WRONG.   Jasons grab is more like a standing swipe like hes grabbing salt at the dinner table.  It should be a lunging grab.   Like he actually means it.  


if the grab animation was a lunging grab.. as it should be.  Then complaining about grab range would not be an issue.  But listening to people over exaggerate about the distance is pretty funny.   In this topic.Someone said its a 100 feet.  Like Jason is sitting at his mommas house like Mr Fantastic and just yoinking people around.

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23 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Here's what I know: I've logged hundreds of hours in Quick Play too and have played dozens of matches full of experienced players who could not find a single item during the match. Not a single one. Maybe we'd get lucky and find the gas or a battery, but you can't escape with only one of those. It was happening most on the large versions of Packanack and Higgins Haven, which have more out-of-the-way corners than Crystal Lake, lots of areas to hide stuff where no one will chance upon it by passing through. 

"I've never heard this behavior called out in lobbies". Because it's nearly impossible to prove who is doing it and that they're doing it intentionally. Again, that's kind of the whole point of doing it in the first place.

Just because you think you haven't experienced it (or more accurately, didn't recognize when it was happening) doesn't mean that it wasn't happening. Something is definitely wrong when there are 5 or 6 players communicating with each other who know the maps by heart and can't complete an objective because they can't find an item. 

Obviously the devs felt it was enough of a problem to warrant a change, and if all they did was cater to whiners, they surely would've changed it back by now...

essentially, it's speculation on both of our parts since it's extremely difficult to prove either way. even in the scenario you mentioned, there's no way to prove it was done intentionally (or that it even happened at all.) who hasn't been in a cabin someone swears they cleared only to see gas hiding in a corner? i say that's part of the fun. that goddamn lachappa tried huffing it across the map with the battery and got killed in the middle of nowhere? now everyone needs to adapt to that and either find a different way out, try to survive the night or kill jason. 

my main point still stands. we don't even know how big of an issue this was but the change they implemented to "fix" it is significant and has an impact on EVERY match.  

was the change made because it was an issue or because a small group whined the loudest? with this game and the choices they've made, it really could go either way. i have a feeling they'll dial it back a bit but i don't think it'll be removed. the people that like it (mostly because it makes being a counselor easier, not because they feel good knowing trolls can't screw their game up) will throw a hissy fit. let's be honest, the people that like this don't like it because it prevents trolling... they like it because it's awesome knowing exactly where the parts are. 

nice back and forth, though. i appreciate civil conversation. 

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46 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

 And if you lean forward and reach you will double that 2 feet 7 inches".,    Hell Its more like a 2.5x increase.  So it would be over 4 feet.

 

Which brings us to the real issue that started the whole "GRAB bitch fest" in the 1st place.    That grab animation was WRONG.   Jasons grab is more like a standing swipe like hes grabbing salt at the dinner table.  It should be a lunging grab.   Like he actually means it.  


if the grab animation was a lunging grab.. as it should be.  Then complaining about grab range would not be an issue.  But listening to people over exaggerate about the distance is pretty funny.   In this topic.Someone said its a 100 feet.  Like Jason is sitting at his mommas house like Mr Fantastic and just yoinking people around.

Agree 100%

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48 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

 And if you lean forward and reach you will double that 2 feet 7 inches".,    Hell Its more like a 2.5x increase.  So it would be over 4 feet.

 

Which brings us to the real issue that started the whole "GRAB bitch fest" in the 1st place.    That grab animation was WRONG.   Jasons grab is more like a standing swipe like hes grabbing salt at the dinner table.  It should be a lunging grab.   Like he actually means it.  


if the grab animation was a lunging grab.. as it should be.  Then complaining about grab range would not be an issue.  But listening to people over exaggerate about the distance is pretty funny.   In this topic.Someone said its a 100 feet.  Like Jason is sitting at his mommas house like Mr Fantastic and just yoinking people around.

Exactly. It's just like the people that say it was "impossible" to escape before this last patch.

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14 hours ago, BomberBuddy said:

Balance.

If it's on the map and you don't go for it, you are a burden to your team. It incentivizes repairs and forces teamwork. This should be a good thing, right? The method of escape is still in play and you can snag as many counselors as you want, as long as they come searching for the part. There is still some sliver of hope. This gives players like you the perfect opportunity to use stalk around vital equipment. You wouldn't have to if it didn't show up on the map and the location was out of the way, but now it's nearly guaranteed. Go for the surprise attack. It's the most satisfying way to kill a player anyway. This does not need to be the only way to play Jason, though.

I want to go beyond the superficiality of the gameplay mechanic. What is the best part of this game? Interacting with others, right? If someone called out an important piece of info, you as a player knew that they wanted to provide a means to succeed for themselves and/or for others. Selfless or selfish intentions aside, with this information you could make a choice: should I carry on the legacy of the lost or find my own way? With icons, the decision to call out an item of importance speaks for itself. There isn't a persona to thank due to the game intervening with human interaction. This game tries to take a utilitarian stance for objective play and cannibalized its survival horror stance. Why should Jason be punished if players choose not to communicate? Why should counselors have the ease of knowing where the part is? The game should not dictate what should be repaired in any capacity. Completing objectives should be earned through the ability to work with others. It is a much more grandiose payoff this way.

 

As long as the icon is on the map, this is the criteria for repairing objectives:

1.) Can the part be found?

2.) Can the objective still be repaired?

3.) Can I escape/survive because of it?

 

Whereas before, if an objective was out of the equation, tough luck. YOU would have to choose your means of escape/survival. You could either try to help others, go for another objective, or decide to take a stand. You survive or you die. Death in this game should be welcomed and does not always mean failure. It's purely psychological; preservation of the self is an instinctual feature that transcends the boundaries of reality and appears in the virtual world. We want to survive because we become attached to our characters. Players will screw us over and players will act like opportunists. However, some will even go above and beyond to sacrifice themselves in order to save the many. Unfortunately, noble sacrifices are hit or miss nowadays. Counselors dancing around the exit with a pocketknife while I get my head knocked off for trying to "save" them shockingly does not make me feel any better. This is what makes every game dynamic and unique, though. You really never know how a game will turn out, especially in quickplay, and that excites me! The game relies on the trust and kindness of others in order to secure group survival. The more and more you begin to win without any real challenge to offset it, the more tolerance you will build. The threat of Jason naturally alleviates itself the more you play as a counselor, but when the turbulent landscape known as "patches" interfere with his threatening presence, he becomes a bad joke. @Alien_Number_Six understands. Ha.

The core mechanic dictating the outcome of the match has changed. Part of the charm as a counselor was the uncertainty of it all. As long as the item is visible on the map, futile attempts to search for key equipment are a thing of the past. This could have been an opportunity for Jason to ambush his prey, but not anymore! This was a feature that was part of the game, and it made cooperation vital in completing objectives against a vicious opponent. There is no longer a severe consequence for lost items. 

I'm not denying that teamwork and talking over mics is a key aspect of this game, and part of it's charm. Your absolute right.

I just haven't seen a difference in communication. People using mics in quick lobbies was always hit or miss. Like it or not, some people will never buy a mic. Some people are hearing impaired, but still wanna play.

I always use a mic. I always communicate over my mic, but some people just wanna Dance.

I'm all about a real survival horror experience, but hey even Resident Evil used shades of Red on the map to indicate a Key item was in the room. Different game I know, but item marking isn't a new thing here.

I'm all for improvements. Could this new item marking system be improved. Yes. Maybe they can limit the amount of Maps available in Drawers, or in order to mark an object you have to have a combination of a radio and Map? Maybe a counselor can only mark 1 item per game? Maybe there's just a simple ON/OFF switch in the lobby? 

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 0:05 PM, ZooMalfunction said:

1) Item dropping trolls were never an issue. I've played over 1500 matches, and maybe saw it 10 times. It's not immediate enough to give them satisfaction as they don't get to see results firsthand. They'd rather help Jason or run people down. Both are way more common.

It also doesn't even fix those issues. Nothing is preventing you locking them in rooms and leaving via the window, or simply refusing to drop them. It's a nuclear response to a problem that didn't exist, and didn't even fix.

2) There's now no need for chat, which makes walkies and the proximity chat features pointless. Everyone has perfect information at all times. That's two unique and core mechanics undermined. And as a result, I've seen a huge drop in people talking, because nobody needs to anymore.

If you consider the looting and exploring phases end quickly now too - that's three complex mechanics turned into basic shadows of themselves.

3) There's now no need for teamwork. Again, everyone has perfect information, so can act as individuals while the game simulates that element, which massively speeds up the game and reduces it's complexity.

A fundamental horror trope is how the main thing that gets people killed is their inability to work together or get on the same page. This went from simulating that perfectly to completely removing it. And in keeping with the trope, non-communicating, selfish/cowardly counselors are now waaaay more successful, instead of the awesome and flavourful burden they used to be, with no incentive not to be.

4) It's ruined Jason. Jason gets stronger as the game goes on, and is vulnerable to mobbing. As games now get objectives fixed much quicker, and people rush to attack them once they see parts, Jason is on the defensive in every match, and getting the shit kicked out of him.

Games now regularly end with 0-4 kills for Jason instead of the 4-8 they used to. People used to beg to be Jason in lobbies, and quit if they weren't. Now they beg not to be, and quit if they are. For a Friday the 13th game, people hating playing as Jason is a disaster.

5) It ruins the atmosphere. By making Jason a chump, and making it so you have no need to work with others, and are powerful and self-sufficient, there's no fear in the game anymore. He's on the defensive from the start, and spends the entire game playing catchup.

By having every game play out the same, and remove the need to organise, it becomes a game of twitch reflexes rather than adaptability and strategy. It removes the unreliable human element, and all the wonderful chaos and drama that came with that.

It essentially becomes a hugely watered down version of itself. The fear has gone. The complexity has gone. The atmosphere has gone.

It's become an unchallenging repair/dancing/cosplay simulator with an ineffective, lumbring hazard that nobody wants to play as. The only people who like it are bad players who like the power fantasy of free wins and hitting a parody of a vicious killer over and over with a frying pan.

It's completely ruined the game in a huge number of ways. But some people like that, because they don't like difficult or complicated or scary things, so love the spoon-fed pile of baby food the game has become.

It's an absolute disaster of design, and just shows how difficult 'magic formulas' in games are to get right if just one change can unravel so many interconnected systems in one swoop.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Right it's to easy to be a counselor and too annoying to be Jason as where it should be the other way around. I used to get excited when Playing Jason, now it's like.. F@ck!

I'm at a point in the game that after one or two matches I'm bored as hell and switch to another game. Hopefully they tweak things a bit cause I think it's a combination of everything that's leading to Jason being useless

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3 hours ago, matisangry said:

let's be honest, the people that like this don't like it because it prevents trolling... they like it because it's awesome knowing exactly where the parts are. 

 

Yes, it is awesome. Because it prevents trolling. 

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6 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Yes, it is awesome. Because it prevents trolling. 

and, more importantly, it lets people know where the gas is so they don't have to waste time looking for it!

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You're being hyperbolic. The items aren't marked on the map from the beginning of the match. Someone still has to find it first. 

Even if they do, and they drop it, and it's marked on the map, someone still has to get to it and carry it to where it needs to go. I've been in plenty of new situations where I had to weigh the risk of heading all the way to the other side of the map to retrieve that battery or just staying where I am and looking for the fuse.

Which is way more interesting to me than wandering around completely blind for twenty minutes.

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