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Alkavian

A piece of unsolicited advice to the Devs.

25 posts in this topic

I’d like to take a moment to address the Devs directly. @Gertz@GunMedia_Ben@[IllFonic]Courier

For those who are not aware, I have spent the better part of 20 years working in various fields in some form of analytical role or as a developer for training related materials for the military. I have spent, literally, days at a time doing trends analysis, statistical assessments, and developing courses of action based on changes made within a given “system”. I provide feedback, suggest changes, and develop workable changes to improve performance. I’m going keep this brief, but I’d like to suggest a couple things:

1. If you are working with a system that has a ton of consequential interplay between mechanics, don’t change too much at one time. Before you make any changes, assess what implication that change will bring. Figure out what other factors within the system will be affected and forecast the most likely outcomes. Make the change and observe. Keep the change modest.

2. Adjust that single change as needed until you get the desired result. (the extremes on both sides of the coin quit being the only voices that ring loudest)

3. Make the next change.

I will say I generally don’t have much issue with this last patch in regards to the changes, though I’m still developing an opinion on the grab mechanics as they are now. There has been a lot of negative and positive feedback regarding the implementation of grab reach/area changes, traps changes, Jason’s melee hit detection, and posting icons on the map. The one mistake that I think you have made is that you are tweaking too many things in a single instance without finding that “sweet spot” with your players.

It is much easier to do this kind of work when you are not beholden to pleasing a rabid fan base. For that, you have my sympathy, because it is a battle you cannot win…completely. I would suggest the changes you should focus on are those that were complained about most. I get that is why you tackled the grab reach debate. That is fine. You should have singled that mechanic out and fully sorted it before addressing anything else.

Using the method of tossing enough stuff at a wall and finding out what will stick will end up costing you more time than just methodically fixing one key issue, then moving on to the next. As it is now, you are creating tons of different feedback trains, with each one focusing on a different change. Plus, there are a few other trains still rolling in regards to previous adjustments (or lack thereof). As you’ve told us before, you are a small team. Please be cautious about how many fires you light at once regarding game mechanics hot buttons. It creates a very fluid dynamic and a ripple effect in gameplay. More importantly, it makes it harder to figure out exactly what you NEED to fix when so many different factors are altered regarding gameplay. Just some food for thought.

The new DLC’s are nice. Thank you. Keep up the hard work.

TL;DR

Don’t make too many changes to gameplay mechanics at one time. It makes it harder to sort out issues and fine tune functionality. You’ll also get less backlash from the players.

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Also forgot to include number 1 rule of being a developer...

"Don't listen or give in to the mass amount of cry babies".

And you guys gave in to all the complainers and whiners about "JASON IS OP, NERF PLS!" And now look what we're left with many nerfs later...

A bunch of Jason is under-powered and weak threads (because he is) and you guys dropped the ball hard with many of F13'rs hearts in keeping this game "similar to the movies".

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Blonde said:

Also forgot to include number 1 rule of being a developer...

"Don't listen or give in to the mass amount of cry babies".

The first rule of development is to listen to everybody (or you may miss out on options you didn't think of). The most important rule is to develop things in such a way as they are manageable, quantifiable, sustainable, and equitable to the outcome you desire, while taking into consideration those affected by the changes you make. Good decisions affect everyone just as much a poor decisions. :)

Everyone has differing opinions AND different degrees to which they endorse them. Sure some people are more vocal than others, and we may not like what they have to say, but it doesn't make their opinion less valid. The only thing that matters is what it takes to achieve the vision one has for what they are creating. People can follow a logical set of sequential changes and understand why they are happening (and what they affect) if they are included in the process. People who are confused by a plethora of changes which drastically alter a dynamic they are accustomed to tend to reflect their frustration as anger. Hence, they cry even louder.

Inclusion, feedback, and modest adjustments to find a happy median will pay better dividends with the player base.

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Eh, I wouldn't say don't listen to anybody ... however, there IS a much better approach than just changing the game to suit bad players. 

What I would do is what CoD and EVERY multiplayer game does: PAY TO WIN!

This does NOT guarantee a win, but surely would give those shit players an incentive.

"By the 50 pocket knife pack for $19.99, use up to 3 per game! Enhance your chances of survival!"

Let them buy that shit instead of dumbing down the game and making it ridiculously easy just to placate them.

We all know 3 pocket knives a game won't fix a bad player, but fuck it, let em have that security blanket if they want to pay for it. Don't ruin the whole game for everyone just to cater to bad players.

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2 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

Eh, I wouldn't say don't listen to anybody ... however, there IS a much better approach than just changing the game to suit bad players. 

What I would do is what CoD and EVERY multiplayer game does: PAY TO WIN!

This does NOT guarantee a win, but surely would give those shit players an incentive.

"By the 50 pocket knife pack for $19.99, use up to 3 per game! Enhance your chances of survival!"

Let them buy that shit instead of dumbing down the game and making it ridiculously easy just to placate them.

We all know 3 pocket knives a game won't fix a bad player, but fuck it, let em have that security blanket if they want to pay for it. Don't ruin the whole game for everyone just to cater to bad players.

Says the guy who would get his ass shredded in competitive COD. 

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Just now, Omnichris64 said:

Says the guy who would get his ass shredded in competitive COD. 

That's funny, I never had a single issue with CoD, was on top leaderboards too. Try again.

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I gotta agree with Dmack on this one. Changing the game to suit bad players has never produced good results.

Evidence: See Call of Duty (Ghost Perk Nerf), Warframe (Rhino Nerf), and now F13 (Jason Nerf). Sometimes you gotta let losers be losers. Seriously.

Edit: As far as CoD's Ghost nerf being a failure, see CoD: Ghosts. It featured a nerfed (Into the ground) Ghost(like) Perk, but everyone and their grandmother still camped with the greatest results I've ever seen campers get in a CoD game.

For the record, I quit Call of Duty regularly after Black Ops 2. When Ghosts came out, I gave them one last chance. Ghost was ultra-nerfed and all of the problems were still present, because all of the whiners got what they wanted. I quit CoD for good after Ghosts. Good riddance.

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Still enjoying the game as much as before. Good Jason's are still good, just played 3 rounds straight where maybe 1 survived each game. 

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I think its important to actively change the game.

For me, the big fear was they were going to simply sit on their hands and new counselors/maps/Jasons/gamemodes were going to be the only things added over time post launch. Even then, they added the fuse for the phone after it was overwhemingly apparent the phone escape was too easy in beta, arguably still is now against weaker Jasons or a barrage of thick skin counselors with medic.

Changing or adding mechanics leads to buzz, positive or negative. Its good for a game.

That said, its not always positive results. The Window change has been more or less torn apart by the community and they've tried everything but reverting it completely with the prompt.

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@Alkavian What you are saying is true, but Illfonic is still treating the game like it is in beta, because it truly is at a low beta level.  The game is not even close to the level of completeness that a game should be at before release, which is the problem.  People are not happy that they paid $40 to beta test the game for Illfonic, nor should they be.  Gun Media rushed the release, which should have been put out at least 6-12 months.  I would guess that they squandered a large portion of the money that was raised, and either had to release, or file for bankruptcy.  If they had waited 6 months, and had a REAL closed beta, this game could have been saved.  Unfortunatley, the pattern of decline has already begun, and I know for a fact that Illfonic is not equipped to turn that cycle around.

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3 hours ago, hazyswayze said:

Still enjoying the game as much as before. Good Jason's are still good, just played 3 rounds straight where maybe 1 survived each game. 

Not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

Good Jasons are still good, even with the changes. I'm still killing 6+, granted it's taking a few more attempts when grabbing. There's still a lack of communication and coordination in QM so Jason is still killing counselors with ease at objectives.

One well placed trap does the trick, even without the ability to stack. If the counselors use a pocket knife, that's part of the game balance. Learn to adapt.

On topic though, Alk nailed it, as usual. When you have so many variables, you have to tweak slowly, or something is gonna go out of balance quickly.

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6 hours ago, Alkavian said:

................

TL;DR

Don’t make too many changes to gameplay mechanics at one time. It makes it harder to sort out issues and fine tune functionality. You’ll also get less backlash from the players.

Thank you, that was brilliant!

And I was just saying that in another thread a second ago, how fast and major change is too much for people to handle without freaking out. 

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@John Wick be respectful of other members while posting. Please review the rules on posting. Thank you. 

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14 hours ago, Alkavian said:

 

Everyone has differing opinions AND different degrees to which they endorse them. Sure some people are more vocal than others, and we may not like what they have to say, but it doesn't make their opinion less valid. 

I agree, but the majority (not all) of the players have opinions based on their preferred role. So I am clear, some players who prefer to play Jason think developers are ruining the game and catering to the crybabies. Then some players that prefer counselors think Jason is OP and should be nerfed (recent grab change is a good example). Then you have some players like myself that miss the fear factor in the game and want Jason like he was in the movies, where people don’t survive often.

With that said, I like most of the recent changes except the grab nerf, I think it should of been done in baby steps (like you mentioned) instead of what is in game today. 

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12 minutes ago, pro5pt0 said:

I agree, but the majority (not all) of the players have opinions based on their preferred role. So I am clear, some players who prefer to play Jason think developers are ruining the game and catering to the crybabies. Then some players that prefer counselors think Jason is OP and should be nerfed (recent grab change is a good example). Then you have some players like myself that miss the fear factor in the game and want Jason like he was in the movies, where people don’t survive often.

With that said, I like most of the recent changes except the grab nerf, I think it should of been done in baby steps (like you mentioned) instead of what is in game today. 

This is a sensible response. Thank you, @pro5pt0

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I've seen no issue with the changes on this patch. I think everyone is just making a mountain out of a molehill. The patch has been out for like 3 days. Give it a week and then start making assumptions. 

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yeah this update changed way to much the oct 11 patch had perfect balance if ask me

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11 minutes ago, Caulus said:

This is a sensible response. Thank you, @pro5pt0

I would expect nothing less from @pro5pt0.

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12 hours ago, WashingtonJones said:

Thank you, that was brilliant!

And I was just saying that in another thread a second ago, how fast and major change is too much for people to handle without freaking out. 

Sudden change that shakes up the overall feel of a game can be a bit jarring. I love the fact they are addressing concerns the players have, but I would like to see tentative steps, which focus down sticking points rather than tons of adjustments at once. It makes it a bit harder to troubleshoot where tuning is needed when too many factors are skewing the assessment of changes.

4 hours ago, AdrianBlackbear said:

I've seen no issue with the changes on this patch. I think everyone is just making a mountain out of a molehill. The patch has been out for like 3 days. Give it a week and then start making assumptions. 

I generally don't see many either. The thing is that the Devs have to consider finding that middle road to success (player satisfaction) and not accidentally swing the pendulum too far one way or the other. This can be done by making adjustments carefully and under controlled conditions. If you toss in too many factors at once it creates a free for all and a feedback dumpster fire.

5 hours ago, pro5pt0 said:

I agree, but the majority (not all) of the players have opinions based on their preferred role.

This is very true.

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20 hours ago, Alkavian said:

I’d like to take a moment to address the Devs directly. @Gertz@GunMedia_Ben@[IllFonic]Courier

For those who are not aware, I have spent the better part of 20 years working in various fields in some form of analytical role or as a developer for training related materials for the military. I have spent, literally, days at a time doing trends analysis, statistical assessments, and developing courses of action based on changes made within a given “system”. I provide feedback, suggest changes, and develop workable changes to improve performance. I’m going keep this brief, but I’d like to suggest a couple things:

1. If you are working with a system that has a ton of consequential interplay between mechanics, don’t change too much at one time. Before you make any changes, assess what implication that change will bring. Figure out what other factors within the system will be affected and forecast the most likely outcomes. Make the change and observe. Keep the change modest.

2. Adjust that single change as needed until you get the desired result. (the extremes on both sides of the coin quit being the only voices that ring loudest)

3. Make the next change.

I will say I generally don’t have much issue with this last patch in regards to the changes, though I’m still developing an opinion on the grab mechanics as they are now. There has been a lot of negative and positive feedback regarding the implementation of grab reach/area changes, traps changes, Jason’s melee hit detection, and posting icons on the map. The one mistake that I think you have made is that you are tweaking too many things in a single instance without finding that “sweet spot” with your players.

It is much easier to do this kind of work when you are not beholden to pleasing a rabid fan base. For that, you have my sympathy, because it is a battle you cannot win…completely. I would suggest the changes you should focus on are those that were complained about most. I get that is why you tackled the grab reach debate. That is fine. You should have singled that mechanic out and fully sorted it before addressing anything else.

Using the method of tossing enough stuff at a wall and finding out what will stick will end up costing you more time than just methodically fixing one key issue, then moving on to the next. As it is now, you are creating tons of different feedback trains, with each one focusing on a different change. Plus, there are a few other trains still rolling in regards to previous adjustments (or lack thereof). As you’ve told us before, you are a small team. Please be cautious about how many fires you light at once regarding game mechanics hot buttons. It creates a very fluid dynamic and a ripple effect in gameplay. More importantly, it makes it harder to figure out exactly what you NEED to fix when so many different factors are altered regarding gameplay. Just some food for thought.

The new DLC’s are nice. Thank you. Keep up the hard work.

TL;DR

Don’t make too many changes to gameplay mechanics at one time. It makes it harder to sort out issues and fine tune functionality. You’ll also get less backlash from the players.

ymLLXiJ.gif

Seriously, one of the best articulated, most tasteful posts I have ever read. Have you noticed how much calmer the forums are discussing the changes. This is like a breath of fresh air over recent hostility. 

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Indeed like TheHansonGoons said,very well done post Alkavian,very well done.

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I don't like seeing a community so divided that they struggle to find common ground. 

I'm grateful the changes and tweaks are happening to improve the gameplay. We just need to work with focus to achieve an acceptable consensus.

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1 hour ago, Alkavian said:

I don't like seeing a community so divided that they struggle to find common ground. 

I'm grateful the changes and tweaks are happening to improve the gameplay. We just need to work with focus to achieve an acceptable consensus.

Agreed and well said sir

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