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Philosophical Difference In Game Balance/Enjoyment - Jason should be EASY

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It's obvious that different people have different mindsets as to how this game (and any game) should be balanced.

The truth is that there are also wide ranges of player skill, comittment, experience, and capability. And those factors also can skew the thoughts and beliefs about game balance.

As always, it is a tricky thing for game developers and designers to achieve a healthy and fun balance, and possibly never more-so than in this particular game.

I hope to put aside all angst and opposition between different thought-processes and share my personal thoughts on this game's balance, playstyle, and enjoyment (and, yes, my personal thoughts are 100% correct, and anyone else's are complete bunk, so shut it!! LOL... kidding!! ...mostly!!). :D

I do think that playing as Jason should be EASY to score an average of more than 4 kills per match.

Yes, I said EASY. The dreaded word that a skilled player must not ever admit. ;)

 As Gun stated from the very first days, this game is different, Jason is OP, you will die. And concepts like that are what drew me to this game, immediately. Like moths to the flame, legions of F13 fans swarmed in to perish by the powers of Jason, hehe... and to, more often, experience the thrill of trying not to die to him. Approximately 7/8th of the time, you/we are playing as a counselor. So, we're all in this together... dying and killing, merily for hours on end!

 

Why do I think it should be EASY?

The skill, experience, ability of players is all across the board. Randomly, a player is picked to be Jason. By law of averages, you're going to get a lower skilled player (no offense, at all!) somewhere around half the time (shush, I know, that is sloppy math... but, let's face it, among online video game communities, 'average' is lowly!).

Those players should be able to wipe out the counselors with fun and ease. Obviously, the more skilled the counselor player is, the more chance THEY will change the overall outcome.

The skill side of the balance should mostly, if not entirely, come from the counselor's side.

This is not simply for the benefit of the Jason player. Nearly half of the time, the player chosen to be Jason is not going to be as skilled/experienced, and the resulting match is going to be less thrilling for all. I believe that an easy-ride train-of-death Jason, in the hands of the least skilled, makes this game more enjoyable for all.

 

But what about the Skilled Jasons?? It will be impossible to survive and/or those players will be bored!

Obviously, there needs to be balance to take this into account. However, it's never going to be impossible to survive and escape. We've all escaped from the greatest of players. It happens to the best, and worst, of us. The skill side will still be on the Counselor's end, and strategy is always key, especially so when outmatched against a monster killing machine.

Skilled players as Jason should also be seeking more advanced techniques to entertain themselves - and the other players. Jason was a creative killer. The better players should find their challenge in the artisty of their kills. I know some of us already attempt to do this. I think there should be slightly less pressure to adhere to the meta (trap the objectives, cut the power, stop the counselors) and more freedom, through the joyful ease of being Jason, to approach things in various ways, to surprise and through off the other players trying to escape and survive.

 

If it's EASY to get killed, no one will want to play.

I don't think that is true at all. I could list several reasons why, but I'll just mentioned that Battle Royales have become hugely popular, and only 1 out of 100 wins. I am pretty sure large amounts of players can enjoy getting killed by Jason Voorhees. Jason won't kill this game. Counselors could kill it though.

 

Now, all that being said, it is possible that the current balance is all in line with what I have said, and what I think the right balance should be.

 

From my experiences in playing, discusing, watching, and listening... I'm finding more people that do not like being selected as Jason. Of course there are excellent pro Jason players, and we could already say getting 6-8 kills is easy enough. However, most likely, no matter the balance, players with that ability can get those results with almost ANY balance. That's the nature of games and humans. :)

You need to remain concerned with the skill, ability, and results with the lower side of skill (and comfortability). I am seeing way too many people that aren't enjoying being chosen as Jason. They feel "too much pressure", it's "too difficult", they don't "have fun", and the rest of the players "aren't having fun either, because Jason 'sucked' this match".

 

I don't think it is a bad thing for skilled players to be in favor of something being EASY. I'm willing to say it. Jason should be EASY. Not just for me. Not just for top tier players. Not just for good players. Also for below-average players.

 

Just my opinion!! (which, by clcking on this thread, you have legally bound yourself to be in complete agreement with) :D 

 

Seriously though, what do you think?

 

 

 

 

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I agree. I play with someone who has cerebral palsy and he really struggles with Jason. Counselor controls are simple enough, but when it comes to shifting/chasing counselors he has a lot of trouble. He absolutely HATES being selected as Jason and people talk A LOT of shit about him because he usually only gets one or two kills, which are usually me trying to help him out and not get too frustrated with the game. Granted not every "below average" player has a legitimate medical issue that makes game in general difficult, but if he can't enjoy a huge aspect of the game then he will eventually just stop playing altogether. It should be a bit of a challenge, but not so much that "below average" players can't get a single kill.

I respectfully like your post.

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We can sit here and debate all day about this but it's been two days since this patch we got a hotfix for two little glitches and that's it. We want answers even a simple sorry but it's going to be this way for now on is better than nothing. I'm looking eagerly every few hours to see if they come out to talk to us about these changes and what we can do to compromise or just say f off it is what it is. The issue is that the longer they wait the player count will fall the community will and is already being split into two pro councelers and pro jason's me being the latter. But we need closure or to work things out. The last patch they came out a day or two after when people were up in arms about the window animation which imo was nothing compared to what they have done now to Jason. If they decide to keep it they will definitely loose players imo Jason is no longer fun to play but a chore trying to grab I'm a damn good Jason and trying to catch them when I'm close and missing is wasting my time when I could be on the other side of the map going after another I do this but know in the back of my head that I'll have to repeat the same shit again later. With this patch Jason does not have any room to have a sense of strategy you have to be on it or else you will fail. I've seen it too last night I had atleast four games where we got the hell out and Jason just wasn't fast enough. This was in five or four minutes I've also noticed the kill count takes way longer then before it will be five minutes that go by and no one has died and I blame this on the grab nerf

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I'm on the fence here and as far as your Jason players who are skilled can do things to make it more challenging and you are correct. I am a player who would do things like only certain types of kills or no traps or let them complete the objective and then try to stop them. So you sir are correct. 
You saying it should be easy for Jason for the we'll call "low-tier" players I'm not 100% on board with. Those players will always be upset... either they die as counselor all the time or can't kill as Jason. 
I'm not arguing. I'd honestly be fine with whatever.
I will make the point though, just as a Jason player can do things as I did to make it more difficult a counselor player can do these things as well. Don't take the first objective completed. If you didn't fix the fuse or call the cops, don't take it work for your own escape. Heck even if you fix the whole car, let other people take it and do something else. Try and KILL Jason. There are multiple things to make it more difficult... Currently people are saying they are just "toying' with Jason and he can't kill them and that it's easier to run then fix stuff.. Well then fix stuff and make it harder. Try to kill him and end the game in 5 minutes if he isn't a good Jason. End it quickly. The problem seems to be people are dragging out games just to prove they can juke him.. Congrats, nobody cares.. this Jason is bad. Escape/Kill Him/Die and lets start a new round with a new Jason.

Again, this is me as someone who is completely indifferent. I loved the game when I bought it, after this patch and every single patch. i adapt and play the game I love.

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People play the game for JASON. Not for any of the generic and forgettable counselor drones.

The second Jason becomes not fun to play as or a chore =  the second fans stop playing the game because it's a joke and nothing like the films that Gunmedia so often loves to insist and claim.

 

Most of my friends lost interest in F13 and are playing other games now due to all the Jason nerfs and abrasive gameplay.  Good going Gunmedia in making the super natural serial killer that the game is designed around unable to mop the floor with teenage counselors...

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@Mr. Blonde about 87% of the time you are playing as those "forgettable counselor drones". The game should be balanced in a way that BOTH sides can enjoy it.

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I agree with you. The easier is it to play as Jason, the easier it is to take your time while still being rewarded for attempting riskier, but flashier kills. Can you do it now? Absolutely. Can you be punished by a smart group of counselors for doing so? You'd better believe it. 

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1 minute ago, Truth said:

@Mr. Blonde about 87% of the time you are playing as those "forgettable counselor drones". The game should be balanced in a way that BOTH sides can enjoy it.

Exactly this. Playing Jason is not a chore, it's a privilege. That said, there are plenty of tweaks that could be done to expand Jason's versatility. The grab range/radius is not the problem, nor are his traps the problem, it's that he currently lacks a lot of functionality that he should have. If anyone is interested in my ideas on the matter, check out my thread for feedback on the 10/25/2017 update.

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Nope, game should be catered to Jason.

If you want fair 50/50 balance go play a generic fighting game where all characters have a fighting chance like Tekken or something.

 

Yes let's all waiting for over 10 games to FINALLY get Jason just to see him counterable and the sides not tipped in his favor for enjoyment and true to the films.

Great idea! Not. Terrible development and design.

 

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Easy?  I don't know that I can agree with that.  I mean, he's already easy, so I assume you mean easier, to the point you have to be actively trying to lose not to get everyone.  This is a video game at the end of the day and there should be some balance.  A Jason should be pleased with himself for getting everyone in the same way a counselor should be pleased with himself for surviving, not feel it's such a gimme that he seriously messed up if even a single counselor gets away.  That's just gaming 101 really.  If there's nothing to strive for the game will get boring.  Playing Jason and wiping the board is often next to effortless for people and I don't really agree that is the ideal.  Jason shouldn't be difficult, you should definitely be able to kill about half the counselors even if you're mediocre, but the full 7/7 or 8/8 should be something you strive for not something you can master within the first few weeks of playing the game because there's so little to it.  Plus, you know, we're getting a single player version where you can only play Jason that should be ideal for those who can't handle any kind of challenge when it comes to playing him in multiplayer.  And I don't say that snidely.  I do understand some people want a relaxing cakewalk when playing games and that's completely fair (especially with the way people shit talk and troll Jasons who don't wipe entire lobbies), your fun is as good as mine, but it's also not more important than mine, and compromises have to made in multiplayer games IMO so that everyone gets to have fun, not just one dude who randomly gets assigned the coveted ROFL stomp everyone role. 

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5 minutes ago, Mr. Blonde said:

Nope, game should be catered to Jason.

If you want fair 50/50 balance go play a generic fighting game where all characters have a fighting chance like Tekken or something.

 

Yes let's all waiting for over 10 games to FINALLY get Jason just to see him counterable and the sides not tipped in his favor for enjoyment and true to the films.

Great idea! Not. Terrible development and design.

 

Right, but if 87% of the time you're not enjoying it, then why play the game?

Also, you definitely didn't read my first post on this thread. I'm all for Jason killing, don't get me wrong.

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20 minutes ago, Truth said:

@Mr. Blonde about 87% of the time you are playing as those "forgettable counselor drones". The game should be balanced in a way that BOTH sides can enjoy it.

Go read up on balance. It was balanced. It does NOT need to be balanced to a SINGULAR player just because they are unwilling to work with a team. It is 7 vs 1 NOT 1 vs 1

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2 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

Go read up on balance. It was balanced. It does NOT need to be balanced to a SINGULAR player just because they are unwilling to work with a team. It is 7 vs 1 NOT 1 vs 1

Absolutely. As a counselor, you're either expected to work with your teammates, or be skilled enough to survive on your own. If you think the game will ever be balanced to provide a counselor a 1 to 1 chance of going toe to toe with Jason for the entirety of the match, I've got bad news for you.

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With the update, I’m actually kind of bored with it I’m afraid to say. Its gotten to the point where I wont even escape when the cops are called unless I am the one to do it because it is now happening IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Not only that, but people are simultaneously getting the boat and cars (sometimes both cars!) to work. It’s awful.

And I suck at this game. I KNOW THAT I DO! But I’m surviving every game I play. Fix it!

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3 minutes ago, Hal Bailman said:

Absolutely. As a counselor, you're either expected to work with your teammates, or be skilled enough to survive on your own. If you think the game will ever be balanced to provide a counselor a 1 to 1 chance of going toe to toe with Jason for the entirety of the match, I've got bad news for you.

Ever will be? It just WAS "balanced" to provide singular counselor vs Jason. This is why it is ridiculously easy to win as a counselor since the patch. It's lopsided in the counselor's favor in order to pander to bad players who don't want to work with a team but yet expect an equal chance at survival despite this.

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8 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

Ever will be? It just WAS "balanced" to provide singular counselor vs Jason.

How so?

I'm not sure what game you're playing. Survival ratios haven't changed a bit in the rounds I've been playing (both on Xbox and PC). Jason still kills 5 to 8 counselors on average, even with the nerfed grab and the items on the map. Jasons who know how to trap and defend properly are still mostly getting 8/8...Where are these rounds where every counselor is escaping? 

I mean, if it's ridiculously easy to win as a counselor since the patch, wouldn't that be the case?

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1 minute ago, AldermachXI said:

How so?

I'm not sure what game you're playing. Survival ratios haven't changed a bit in the rounds I've been playing (both on Xbox and PC). Jason still kills 5 to 8 counselors on average, even with the nerfed grab and the items on the map. Jasons who know how to trap and defend properly are still mostly getting 8/8...Where are these rounds where every counselor is escaping? 

I mean, if it's ridiculously easy to win as a counselor since the patch, wouldn't that be the case?

Right, right, because all of the people posting on here about this being boring and too easy since the patch are all wrong. The data will speak for itself whenever the devs decide to look at it. You can continue to claim whatever you want to make yourself "feel better" and delusion yourself into thinking the game isn't tipped in the counselor's favor. 

I've already answered your "trap and defend" bullshit. It's made up, unless every Jason you play with can bypass cooldowns and morph at will. In that case, they'd be cheating. 

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I want Jason to be easy because he's a fucking unstoppable supernatural force that can hunt anyone who trespasses in his camp and woods like in the movies!!! Counselors should barely get away by the skin of their teeth when chased by Jason.

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I plan to respond to more when I get the chance, later on, but I wanted to say two quick things...

1) This thread is NOT a direct response to any recent changes. I've actually not had a chance to play since the latest patch, and refuse to make any premature judgments about changes. The topic is just something we've all skirted along, in many of our discussions (disagreements and arguments). It sort of hit me in the head, when I saw some people trying to make a point, by claiming that another person just wanted playing Jason to "be easy". And it got me thinking and I realized much of what I said in my original post.

2) We can all argue, endlessly, about whether Jason currently IS easy (too easy, not easy enough, too difficult, etc.). Let's try to remain focused on whether we can even agree on what the balancing measure should be, rather than whether or not the current state of things has reached it. Obviously, there's going to be some carryover between ideas, especially in trying to provide examples, but just try not to make this thread all about your opinions on what the current game's balance is, and more about what your philosophy for this game's balance is. What level of play should find Jason "easy" enough... what is "easy enough"... how can we all send Nomadder money? Important questions like that.

:D

OH! And mistakes were made. Somehow, I am already out of likes for the day, so I owe a bunch in here so far... especially @A.J. Mason - you made me laugh out loud. Thank you! 

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4 hours ago, dmack621 said:

Right, right, because all of the people posting on here about this being boring and too easy since the patch are all wrong. The data will speak for itself whenever the devs decide to look at it. You can continue to claim whatever you want to make yourself "feel better" and delusion yourself into thinking the game isn't tipped in the counselor's favor. 

I've already answered your "trap and defend" bullshit. It's made up, unless every Jason you play with can bypass cooldowns and morph at will. In that case, they'd be cheating. 

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