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Why part 7 Jason needs a BUFF

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On 11/10/2017 at 6:37 PM, WashingtonJones said:

I do think a weed wacker environmental kill would be one of the nicest things I've ever seen.

I don't think a weed whacker would really do enough damage to kill someone though... You're welcome to try it out, just don't say I suggested it.

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30 minutes ago, Truth said:

I don't think a weed whacker would really do enough damage to kill someone though... You're welcome to try it out, just don't say I suggested it.

This weedwacker will do the trick.

I can't wait to only use Part 7

 

P.S. The MPAA nerfed that kill

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9 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

This weedwacker will do the trick.

I can't wait to only use Part 7

P.S. The MPAA nerfed that kill

That's all I needed to see. Totally forgot about that kill.  I was picturing this:

index.jpg

So you can understand my confusion. That plastic string isn't going to do shit lol

 

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19 hours ago, Reyezblood 03 said:

J7 new stats should be 

+Shift 

+Stalk 

+Waterspeed

-Can’t run

-Stun resistance 

-Traps 

That's almost like playing P9.

Also for those suggesting +rage or +fear, I have a hunch that the devs won't even do that since it's basically inventing a new perk and I don't think they are going to put effort. It took so long to get their attention that P7 sucks balls. So now that they have finally answered I expect them to do a minor adjustment and not completely recreate him. They probably just take out one of his lame strength or one of his bad weakness and replace it with one of the available perks that already exist. If I was a betting man, that's whats going to happen.

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51 minutes ago, Archgamer said:

That's almost like playing P9.

Also for those suggesting +rage or +fear, I have a hunch that the devs won't even do that since it's basically inventing a new perk and I don't think they are going to put effort. It took so long to get their attention that P7 sucks balls. So now that they have finally answered I expect them to do a minor adjustment and not completely recreate him. They probably just take out one of his lame strength or one of his bad weakness and replace it with one of the available perks that already exist. If I was a betting man, that's whats going to happen.

And that would be good enough for me for now I think, it would be a first step at least. I would strongly suggest replacing the -Shift stat with something that doesn't impair mobility, and replacing Grip Strength with something that's actually useful in gameplay.

I would pick +Weapon Strength to replace Grip Strength, as other than Savini, no undead Jason actually has it. So that would make Part 7 unique within the selection of undead Jasons that everyone has access to. His machete has a fast weapon speed so it would improve viability in combat / close range to a large degree.

I would have to think what would be an adequate replacement for -Shift, but it shouldn't be -Morph. Can't give -Morph to a Jason with -Traps, as that would still result in difficulty controlling objectives.

EDIT: Here are my proposed stats for J7. It doesn't need to be more complex than replacing a single strength and a single weakness for him to be a more viable, and more unique choice.

Strengths:
+Waterspeed
+Sense
+Weapon Strength (new)

Weaknesses:
Can't Run 
-Traps
-Stun Resistance (new)

No other Jason has these set of stats, they are 100% unique. +Weapon Strength paired with fast weapon speed would make him a beast in combat, but -Stun Resistance would balance it out. Stun Resistance doesn't actually work right now, but this is assuming that it will be fixed.

These stats would also align with how he is portrayed in the movie, as he is incredibly powerful (+Weapon Strength) but also gets knocked around a lot by Tina (-Stun Resistance).

 

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40 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

And that would be good enough for me for now I think, it would be a first step at least. I would strongly suggest replacing the -Shift stat with something that doesn't impair mobility, and replacing Grip Strength with something that's actually useful in gameplay.

I would pick +Weapon Strength to replace Grip Strength, as other than Savini, no undead Jason actually has it. So that would make Part 7 unique within the selection of undead Jasons that everyone has access to. His machete has a fast weapon speed so it would improve viability in combat / close range to a large degree.

I would have to think what would be an adequate replacement for -Shift, but it shouldn't be -Morph. Can't give -Morph to a Jason with -Traps, as that would still result in difficulty controlling objectives.

EDIT: Here are my proposed stats for J7. It doesn't need to be more complex than replacing a single strength and a single weakness for him to be a more viable, and more unique choice.

Strengths:
+Waterspeed
+Sense
+Weapon Strength (new)

Weaknesses:
Can't Run 
-Traps
-Stun Resistance (new)

No other Jason has these set of stats, they are 100% unique. +Weapon Strength paired with fast weapon speed would make him a beast in combat, but -Stun Resistance would balance it out. Stun Resistance doesn't actually work right now, but this is assuming that it will be fixed.

These stats would also align with how he is portrayed in the movie, as he is incredibly powerful (+Weapon Strength) but also gets knocked around a lot by Tina (-Stun Resistance).

 

I could see a build similar to that for Uber if we get him. Id expect him to be the bruiser undead Jason. I think where they messed up is they wanted 7 to be the stealthy killer, that once he got you, there was no escape. However, in doing this they made him unable to chase or control worth a damn. I agree grip strength should go, unless they buff how effective composure is cause as things are, you need little room for a Head Punch and its instant/fast. Maybe:

+Stalk (I think Stalk on positive should be longer actually)
+Sense (I know for a fact Range plays a big part. Part 8's sense range is aweful.)
+Morph (Always thought it was weird the Jason with the most traps was also the one that could move to objectives fastest. That may be by design though. "The Objective Watcher""

And I can agree with the weaknesses. I just feel one of the Undead Jasons needs a way to move around. Definitely never  -Shift or -Morph. If not the +Morph than +Shift. If they want to keep Part 7 as the stealthy Jason, like it seems they were going for even if it may not line up with the movie, then give up the ability to be sneaky and get around counselors. 

To add to this, I know its a little off topic, but please remove the "scream when you see Jason" mechanic that was added. There have been times where I havent seen Jason but thanks to that new mechanic *sarcasm* I was able to know he was near. ALSO, change he range for when his threat music starts. I tested the other day on Higgins and found out that Jason can be 3 cabins away and you can still hear him. At this point veteran players know the difference between real Jason music and the ambient music thats suppose to somewhat throw them off, especially with each Jason having their own music (which I love btw, so please dont change that.)

Sorry that got a little off topic. Just throwing thoughts at the wall to see how everyone else feels. But as I said, I believe the tanky, strong undead Jason will be Uber when we get him.

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31 minutes ago, ThePunkPirate said:

I could see a build similar to that for Uber if we get him. Id expect him to be the bruiser undead Jason. I think where they messed up is they wanted 7 to be the stealthy killer, that once he got you, there was no escape. However, in doing this they made him unable to chase or control worth a damn. I agree grip strength should go, unless they buff how effective composure is cause as things are, you need little room for a Head Punch and its instant/fast.

It would work for Uber, but personally I'm not even thinking about him. Who knows if we'll ever get him, who knows how long the game will last. I'm just thinking about what can help right now, and especially since people have been discussing J7 since release. So he should be first to be addressed.

31 minutes ago, ThePunkPirate said:

+Stalk (I think Stalk on positive should be longer actually)
+Sense (I know for a fact Range plays a big part. Part 8's sense range is aweful.)
+Morph (Always thought it was weird the Jason with the most traps was also the one that could move to objectives fastest. That may be by design though. "The Objective Watcher""

+Stalk and +Sense already belong to Part 6, it would not distinguish Part 7 enough. He could have a +Morph, but it would not benefit him as much as +Weapon Strength. He would just have the same issue as Part 2 who does have good map control with +Morph and +Traps, but can't actually defend objectives as adequately as others due to no Weapon Strength and -Shift. 

Also:

31 minutes ago, ThePunkPirate said:

+Sense (I know for a fact Range plays a big part. Part 8's sense range is aweful.)

Sense, whether plus or minus, doesn't actually have any effect on range. I've had long discussions about this already on this forum, I could point you to a couple. All mechanics have been extensively tested in the past, and the only thing confirmed for the difference between Sense stats is cooldown. No effect on range was ever confirmed.

EDIT: the game will tell you +Sense affects range, but it is incorrect. Just as it incorrectly tells you that Stealth affects Jason's ability to Sense you (it doesn't). This is because the stat page descriptions are from beta.

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11 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

EDIT: the game will tell you +Sense affects range, but it is incorrect. Just as it incorrectly tells you that Stealth affects Jason's ability to Sense (it doesn't). This is because the stat page descriptions are from beta.

I knew stealth didnt effect sense, it effects noise pings, composure is suppose to help with sense and break-away times from what I read in old tests. To be honest I feel maybe we should start testing everything every patch since little things get added that arent in the patch notes, like the screams and no more camera zoom-in when Jason shifts towards you.

Ive only been testing the things that a lot of people are worried about from this patch specifically, mainly tied to combat since I take it upon myself in most matches to be the one to aggro Jason. Grab Range/Cone, weapon hit detection from both Jason and Counselors, Thick Skinned hits before crippled, and so on. Tomorrow Ill try to get some more basic tests done. Try to get exact numbers for timers on Stalk since it seems +Stalk isnt too much longer than base, and other things like that. To be honest I think they need to revamp some of the Pros and Cons. Like Ive stated in a post somewhere, I dont know for the life of me the difference between -Health and -Defense since both mention Jasons HP only Defense seems to mention chance to block, which again, I have no idea if that means to block the actual damage or what.

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29 minutes ago, ThePunkPirate said:

 To be honest I feel maybe we should start testing everything every patch since little things get added that arent in the patch notes, like the screams and no more camera zoom-in when Jason shifts towards you.

I agree, we should absolutely be testing things every patch. I also take it upon myself to do some of this testing, as certain results from previous versions of the game are now outdated.

29 minutes ago, ThePunkPirate said:

Tomorrow Ill try to get some more basic tests done. Try to get exact numbers for timers on Stalk since it seems +Stalk isnt too much longer than base, and other things like that. To be honest I think they need to revamp some of the Pros and Cons. Like Ive stated in a post somewhere, I dont know for the life of me the difference between -Health and -Defense since both mention Jasons HP only Defense seems to mention chance to block, which again, I have no idea if that means to block the actual damage or what.

Excellent, I'll provide some testing conditions in a moment if you're inclined to do some. In regards to exact numbers on Stalk, and things of that nature, refer to Rydog's results in This guide and see if they match up. In older versions of the game, neither Stun Resistance, nor Defense, nor Less Hit Points made any discernible difference within their respective purposes, but I have heard that Less Hit Points apparently now works. 

Now onto Sense. As I said, there's been some lengthy discussion on it between @Alkavian and I, so I would highly suggest reading This page from his Playbook thread to fully understand what we were analyzing. Read through his posts and mine, it's from a while back but still relevant.
Here's a copy of some simple tests I came up with there (but they will require some buddies to help) -

Does Sense gradually increase its range to detect Counselors regardless of Fear?
1. Have a counselor stand just outside of Sense range at the beginning of the match, in a well-lit area where they can maintain low Fear level 
2. Activate Sense periodically to see whether the Counselor is detected as time goes on
3. Additional - Perform the above steps with Counselor inside and outside a cabin to see whether it makes a difference to detection

If Sense does gradually increase, is the rate of increase tied to Rage meter?
2 Counselors are needed for this.
1. Have counselor #1 stand just outside of Sense range at the beginning of the match, in a well-lit area where they can maintain low Fear level
2. Have counselor #2 attack you to increase your Rage meter, and activate Sense immediately after
3. Perform step 2 repeatedly to see whether you can detect counselor #1 immediately after a Rage increase. Observe how many repetitions / amount of Rage needed to detect. 

+Sense
Have a counselor stand at the same distance as the previous tests, just outside of base Sense detection, and observe whether +Sense can detect the counselor. If it has any meaningful benefit to range, it should be able to. 

I don't want to derail this thread so just PM me the results if you do them please. It would be a big help towards providing knowledge on the matter. I would've done these tests myself but I don't have people on my list interested in that sort of thing. 

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On 11/9/2017 at 3:25 PM, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We're looking at Jason Part 7 and considering possible changes and/or tweaks that can be made on him.
There is nothing set in stone and we're still in discussions about it, but I'll be sure to take in all of your suggestions.

@[IllFonic]Courier Can you give us an update on this? Has there been a decision one way or another on if anything will be done with J7?

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We know there won’t be any changes till the update. But, people have been complaining since the beta, and Gun and Illfonic have acknowledged it on more than one occasion. I think it’s past time that they tell us one way or another if they’re going to do anything with him.

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6 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Any changes to Part 7 are not going to come until the engine update. If he's not changed when that update drops, then you can start complaining.

Sorry to say this, but this probably will not happen. Shifty didn't say anything about Part 7 ever being tweaked in one of his comments. As far as I know, this is what he said: 

Also, Courier said this prior to the engine upgrade ever happening.

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Lets not forget they said NES Jason would become his own Jason months ago.

And even though Randy backed that up a couple times on stream after that.

You basically just have to think these things have been put on the back burner for other things. I can understand NES Jason because he's not a canon Jason technically.

But literally how hard is it to change Part 7 stats? It has to be nothing more than a quick line of code.

1.

+ Water Speed

+ Morph

+ Grip Strength

- Traps

- Can't Run

- Stun Resistance

2.

+ Water Speed

+ Shift

+ Morph

- Traps

- Can't Run

- Stun Resistance

3.

+ Water Speed

+ Sense

+ Grip Strength

- Traps

- Can't Run

- Stun Resistance

4.

+ Water Speed

+ Sense

+ Grip Strength

- Shift

- Can't Run

- Stun Resistance

Literally ANY of these would be better than -Shift AND -Traps

Write those scenarios down, put them in a fucking hat...shake the hat all over...and pick one...there will be duplicates obviously and the stat scenario that gets the highest picks ends up being the new J7 stats and if you end in a tie...flip a fucking coin.

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@NoOneK9503 I know that. :angry:

What I mean is that no new updates will come until April-May when the engine update comes. They have their hands full right now. Changing Part 7 requires testing for balance so he's not op or weak. They likely don't have the time to test that because of everything else.

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1 hour ago, tyrant666 said:

But literally how hard is it to change Part 7 stats? It has to be nothing more than a quick line of code

Exactly. Also, they can change the color of Roys clothes (I’m glad they will), but they can’t make one of the Jason’s more viable? A request that has been made LONG before Roy was even in the game? Come on guys!

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  One of the Jason variants does have to be the weakest. Its too bad that part 7 drew the shortest straw here and not Roy.... for reasons that should not need to be stated. I do find it more of a challenge to use part 7, but I still do pretty well with him when I use him. Not always 8 / 8, but I can say that about any match... playing any Jason. My worst game for kill count was on Packanack small playing part 4. Both cars got started early on and within seconds of each other and took different routes to the exit. I missed one.... and you guessed it, both cars were gone. They were also both full.... leaving only a depressed Fox behind that I made short work of.    #Shortest Match Ever
  Part 7 does have one of the best appearances in my opinion. I like to use him, but don't bother that much, I prefer Part 4. I do usually only alternate between part 4 and part 7 though. I find that the -Traps on both of them make it a challenge to control objectives. I have gotten pretty good at stopping cars due to almost never laying a trap on them.... but like everyone else in the world, I am not perfect. Now and again they slip by. If Jason had an emote pack... I would wave at them as they left, or give them the finger..... depends on whether or not the escapees were rude or not.

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There are some out there who feel its ok for an undead Jason to have a negative Shift, other than challenge because they find it 'unique'.

By that logic, a running Jason should've been allowed to have a +Shift.

It made the most sense for Part 4.

+ Shift

+ Destruction

+ Can Run

- Traps

- Less Hit Points

- Defense

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21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

  One of the Jason variants does have to be the weakest. 

Personally, I don’t think there’s a need for a “weakest” Jason. Part 7 is the weakest, and as a result, no one ever plays him (other than bots) and most want him changed. He’s just another picture you have to scroll past to get to the Jason you want when selecting. +grip strength is complete garbage, and -shift and -traps is just too much for him to overcome. Especially in private matches with skilled counselors. Replace grip strength with +shift and that alone would at least make him useable.

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50 minutes ago, Super Ty said:

Personally, I don’t think there’s a need for a “weakest” Jason. Part 7 is the weakest, and as a result, no one ever plays him (other than bots) and most want him changed. He’s just another picture you have to scroll past to get to the Jason you want when selecting. +grip strength is complete garbage, and -shift and -traps is just too much for him to overcome. Especially in private matches with skilled counselors. Replace grip strength with +shift and that alone would at least make him useable.

    If they had all of the same strengths and weaknesses, there could not be a weakest Jason. They would all be the same. Other than that, there WILL be a 'Weakest Jason'. Which one was weakest would just be a matter of opinion. The general consensus is that part 7 is the weakest Jason, therefore... many people do not want to play him (other than against bots) and want him changed. There are some that feel differently and the reasons for their opinions can depend on their playstyle and ability to turn weaknesses into strengths. In other words, the ability to form coherent tactics with what you are given. Of course, no one tactic will be successful every time, whether against the same players or different players every time.
   Personally, I do not mind playing part 7... I just don't play him very often. Many players think he is the worst Jason, so it must be more of a challenge for me. This is true in some games and not true in others. I am talking about playing against the same group of people for many of these games. Each game is different, even when playing against the same people, yet some times I have a hard time with part 7 and other times find it easy. If I had used a different Jason in these games, perhaps the other player's strategies may have changed the outcomes of any one of these games for better or worse. I think it safe to assume that many of the people I have played with when I use part 7 think it may be a cake walk for them and they do not need to try so hard to escape, at least in 'some' of these games that I speak of.
   If they change him, then they change him. I will not mind either way and will not oppose a change in any way. I will also not complain if they do not change him. My point here is simple.... if they do change part 7 and people are happy that he is no longer the 'Weakest Jason', then other players will start to pop up claiming another Jason is now useless and in need of change. This could lead to a vicious cycle, which could lead to part 7 being labeled as 'the weakest Jason' again at some point after several other versions of Jason have gone through this debate.

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I would agree with you if people were raising the same concerns about other Jason’s, but they are not. This has been a request since the beta, and again, one that they have already acknowledged they were looking into. If they don’t change him, then so be it. He’ll just go on being unsused by most except for offline bots, which really is a shame. At this point he doesn’t even really need to be in the game. I think it’s time they tell us if they’re going to or not. People have asked long enough.

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