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Why part 7 Jason needs a BUFF

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2 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

And I can see you're one of those types who can't hold a discussion without letting emotions get in the way. I've done nothing but politely explain to you the other side of the argument. If you're not ready for that then think what you like, but know that outside of this community you would be in the minority. 

Exploiting bugs at the expense of others gets me riled up. I've explained my position on this prior to this thread and I don't feel like repeating myself.

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17 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Exploiting bugs at the expense of others gets me riled up. I've explained my position on this prior to this thread and I don't feel like repeating myself.

You are simply not understanding. It is not a matter of liking or disliking broken game mechanics. In high level play, it is a matter of needing to know them to be able to counter, and needing to use them yourself once they become part of the meta. That is the process of deep gameplay, whether it concerns something intended by the developers or not. That is why they are used until no longer possible, because in advanced gameplay, it isn't an option not to.

So unless you intend on always having matches with a closed group of players with set rules on what is and isn't allowed, you will have to adapt to everything that is possible if you intend on being the best player you can be. In a perfectly coded game, everything would function as intended and the developers would make sure nothing operates in a broken way. Unfortunately that is not the case, and especially not the case in F13. No one is to blame for what exists other than the developers.

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25 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

You are simply not understanding. It is not a matter of liking or disliking broken game mechanics. In high level play, it is a matter of needing to know them to be able to counter, and needing to use them yourself once they become part of the meta. That is the process of deep gameplay, whether it concerns something intended by the developers or not. That is why they are used until no longer possible, because in advanced gameplay, it isn't an option not to.

I didn't knew getting in the roof was allowed and necessary.

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21 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

I didn't knew getting in the roof was allowed and necessary.

It's not, and I would never say it is. You guys need to read what I've written again without bias. I would never encourage that sort of thing which has no counter. I never even said I liked the broken mechanics about the game or that there are techniques that rely on it. But I remove personal opinion from it, and look at it all objectively based on what is allowed and what I need to know. 

Easy example for you that isn't even related to any exploits. During the release  of the game, everyone was carefully going from cabin to cabin, barricading doors, opening windows, setting traps etc. Now, you will rarely see anyone doing it but new players. Why? Because players realised it is far more effective to speed loot cabins and try to repair objectives before Jason has any good chance of catching you. If he decides to tunnel a player at the start, he will pay for it tenfold as everyone else will take advantage of the time he is distracted. So if you are still casually taking your time with cabins, you are only putting yourself at a disadvantage. By the time you are done with a cabin, many others will be looted and people will be already repairing objectives.

Now apply this to combat. An experienced Jason has learned all the intricacies of combat, whether you call them exploits or not, and is prepared for high level play. If you have not bothered to learn advanced combat and are playing at a basic skill level, you will get destroyed. Not only are you putting yourself at a disadvantage, but the rest of your team too. So in essence, you are forced to learn everything that is possible in order to perform at your best for yourself and your team. 

It is also worth mentioning that sometimes exploits and their counters can be so interesting, and advance deep gameplay, that the developers themselves make them a legitimate feature. Not every exploit is a game-breaking disaster. Personally I had a very different idea of this game to the way it turned out, and I'm sure others did too. Forego this notion. Play the game based on how it is played, and stop holding yourself back based on how you think it should be played.

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3 hours ago, AdrianBlackbear said:

I clearly stated my point and even agreed with you at one point. You don't have to turn into a sarcastic dick just because I don't agree with you 100%. My opinion is that P3 is the weakest. Yours is that P7 is the weakest. Everyone has their own opinion.

Show me data that says that P7 gets the fewest kills and lets the most survivors escape, and then we can talk about facts. 

And stop quoting me. I'm tired of notifications from this thread. It's a waste of time and energy. 

Fair enough, but it is a fact that Jason 7 has one of the worst ability cooldown times in the game, with only Jason 3 below him. However, Jason 3 does not have a weakness to shift, and has actual abilities that help him chase counselors. I don't consider weapon strength to be bad at all. It cuts the time in half for how many swings it takes to make counselors limp. You can do that until they're dead if you so choose, or whittle them down to limping before a grab so they have to heal if they have a pocket knife. It's not as good as destruction but it's still not a bad skill especially if counselors are bunching up near an objective like the car.

It's not about how many counselors Jason 7 gets, it's about how on par he is with the other Jasons. He has no decent abilities and very harsh negatives. I wasn't so much trying to be a dick as I was trying to get my point across about his stats. My apologies for coming off harshly. However I really don't see how anyone, especially the developers, could look at Jason 7 and think his stats were ok. He has no style that any other Jason couldn't utilize as well. His strengths are minor passive boosts you'd give to fill in already great skills. 

Edited by VenomSymbiote
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12 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

The line between advanced gameplay and bugs/exploits can be difficult to define. Thus, the way it is approached in every game is that providing there is a counter, it is legimitate until it is no longer possible (which is the devs' responsibility). Neither of them ever encouraged game-breaking exploits such as map-glitching for which there is no counter.

But they are the ones who did. And as no one else was inclined to do their job, you can't know that for sure. The best we had before that was only basic info appropriated from the game manual and description of mechanics that weren't even accurate. No one else had the inclination to run an actual data mine on the game.

Of course just because someone makes a guide doesn't automatically mean the guide is of any worth. What distinguishes Rydog and Pappus however is that their guides were backed up by hard, scientific evidence and they are both experienced at analysing games to this degree. Have you ever actually read or viewed their guides yourself? I think your opinion would change if you had.

If you have problems with their methods it means you have problems with the way every other game is broken down at the technical and advanced level. All it comes down to is what is possible and whether there is a counter for it. Like I said, I didn't like all of their techniques but that is less on them and more on the developers for allowing mechanics to function in broken ways. If anything they simply exposed problems to the devs to be aware of (and which they still choose to largely ignore).

I'm also not inclined to criticise those who freely provide technical, scientific knowledge and ask for nothing in return. Both Rydog and Pappus were gracious to the community but were shown the door mainly because casuals didn't want the game to have a competitive side or were simply too narrow minded to understand it.  So instead we got bad advice and misinformation running around unchecked, and why a majority of players are still clueless.

Where are these guides. Links please

 

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I largely agree with tommy86. There is too little information about game mechanics. I'm not meta in the slightest. I am average at best. As jason i kill on average 6 to 7 players, i don't want to troll through endless excuses and reasoning. Though in part i do feel this is because a lack of knowledge and the community available. I brought my ps4 to play this game. I got an internet connection to play this game. So largely i don't have a vast community of players to play this with. I've grinded through many a public match to reach my current level and most what i know now is through my own tried and tested methods. May sound silly but i reached level 40 before i realised holding the button would smash through the door in a complete animation. Maybe this should be of embarassment to me. The in game manual doesn't say hold the button and unlike counsilors locking doors and the clear indication to hold to lock. Jason comes with no such prompt, ive seen other mid level jason's doing the same thing. Pressing the button once for each swing, meta level players would be laughing at seeing this. A clear indication this guy does not know what he is doing. It doesn't help that the game has a swarm of trolling players, who's biggest motivation is screwing other counsilors over and thusly discouraging the good team based aspect of game play. Maybe i'm sure this is all online games to some point but i stress again prior to friday the 13th i wasn't playing games online and when i did, some years ago. It was the likes of street fighter 4 and mortal kombat.

Anyway what i've read in this thread so far has been worth reading.

Cheers

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Actually it's not a bad idea to smack the door once at a time, depending on situation. If a counselor leaves the house you can give chase quicker without having to finish the entire door animation. 

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This topic is starting to really stray from Part 7 Jason, but I'll offer my two cents anyways.

I don't much about Pappus, but Rydog was someone who I found out a great deal of information about, so I'll respect him for being one of the first data miners who really tried to explore the game's mechanics. Where he screwed up was making a tier list for simple reason: tier lists will always rile up a community. He also did the following that tended to not sit so well with people.

First, he enforced his meta on the reasoning that the meta was for experienced counselors when most of the games played usually are pubs with inexperienced players. For instance, he considered A.J. Mason weak, despite the fact she's a good repair counselor (he rated counselors with great repair highly except A.J.), and was better at hiding overall than Deborah or Eric. The "high tier" video he once posted (under the youtube name "Geekboxing") as A.J. occupying a hiding spot for most of the game didn't sit well with people at all, and basically encouraged people to hide most of them game rather than be productive to helping the team out. In short, he failed to understand that not all A.J. Mason players are selfish, and his portrayal of her instantly got on the nerves of many. And A.J. wasn't really the only one his "high tier" analysis was really skewed on, but that'll be a discussion for another time.

The issue with a tier list is that it can change wildly, so if you're not paying close attention to the meta then inevitably your list becomes obsolete. Rydog voted Chad highly because he could use the baseball bat up to a whopping five times. Well, in this current meta, Chad would essentially be worthless because the bat breaks on him in say one or two hits. Since Rydog's meta heavily favored counselors who could fight well, that means his entire tier list is screwed up now until the luck stat gets fixed. Furthermore, with counselors being nerfed repeatedly (thick skin no longer works against traps for instance, something that made Jenny more useful as a result), and Jason become more dangerous, I wonder how Rydog's tier list would work now?

Tier lists are useful, but you have to accept the inevitability that you will piss people off, and sometimes it's because information you present to the public as "high tier" could potentially be wrong. The best way to truly understand the game as a whole is research people who main certain counselors, and therefore would know how their preferred picks stand in a current meta. I could've discussed with Rydog how Jenny has a unique place on the team when it features repair counselors who don't have 9+ Stealth (I'm writing an article on her soon btw), but I feel it wouldn't have gotten far with him. He likely would've just denounced her as a "hide in a tent near a campfire" counselor just like how he described her on his guide.

TL;DR Don't create tier lists unless you plan on updating it constantly as well as thoroughly. And remember that people who main certain counselors/Jasons are going to have a much better understanding of them.

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@VenomSymbioteI can even see Part 7 doing great in an archipelago-like map, but in a ground predominant one, he'll fail. That can fortify my theory that he was made for maps with water-predominant terrain, which makes his stats even more situational.

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2 hours ago, NoOneK9503 said:

@VenomSymbioteI can even see Part 7 doing great in an archipelago-like map, but in a ground predominant one, he'll fail. That can fortify my theory that he was made for maps with water-predominant terrain, which makes his stats even more situational.

Possibly yes, but even then you're better off going Part 8 due to him having better overall stats than 7 as well as Water Speed. 

Trident, as someone who enjoys playing as both Jason and counselor, I can honestly say the thick skin nerf was needed. It was just way too good and let you do way too much for a simple perk slot and a first aid spray. You are right that tier lists will change in a game where priorities are in the right place. Granted with Friday the 13th balance should be in favor of Jason, but there's also the balance of making it so counselors don't become unstoppable forces themselves which various mechanics were edging toward, intentionally so or not. 

Edited by VenomSymbiote
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I totally agree! In my opinion the strongest Jason's are part 6, Savini, and part 3. The weakest part 7, the hardest one is part 2. I love the look of part 7 and that is the only reason why sometimes play him. Personally I think part 6 is the best. And Savini is overpowered. 

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8 hours ago, Vassago said:

Where are these guides. Links please

 

Of course, these guides are the original knowledge base for the game, they will get you on the right track:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Rydog/myworkshopfiles/?section=guides&appid=438740

Keep in mind, however, they are more to do with the technical side of the game, but will help you understand the game mechanics and provide knowledge in many areas. There have also been balance updates since they were posted, and some bugs exist in the latest build of the game which do affect some aspects of these guides. After you're done reading, you can always ask for more help here. 

Also check out Alkavian's posts in this thread (which is regularly being updated) for a more guided approach in playing the game. This one may be more useful for you in learning how to play matches correctly.

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6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

I don't much about Pappus, but Rydog was someone who I found out a great deal of information about, so I'll respect him for being one of the first data miners who really tried to explore the game's mechanics. Where he screwed up was making a tier list for simple reason: tier lists will always rile up a community. He also did the following that tended to not sit so well with people.

Pappus may be unpopular in this community but he is as much responsible as Rydog for the existing knowledge and tech of the game. Just for example, he put up an 80 minute video explaining combat in F13 in great depth, which is extremely useful along with many other excellent guides. Having said that, I'm not a fan of all of the techniques or how he conducts himself in matches, but I try not to judge given that he freely provides advanced knowledge and is gracious towards new players. Besides, having a moral stance on gameplay is a slippery slope IMO, as you're likely to encounter grey areas and risk being hypocritical eventually. 

6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

First, he enforced his meta on the reasoning that the meta was for experienced counselors when most of the games played usually are pubs with inexperienced players. For instance, he considered A.J. Mason weak, despite the fact she's a good repair counselor (he rated counselors with great repair highly except A.J.), and was better at hiding overall than Deborah or Eric.

Well to be fair, for a meta to be effective then all aspects have to followed. As the meta is a combat-focused, team-based approach then players must have the necessary abilities and co-ordination for it to work. It is something that is only possible with practice, but once achieved, the logic, data and skill on which the meta is founded should make it successful. And it does. The meta has proven itself thus far, and made counselors a more potent threat than the devs could've anticipated. High level, aggressive teams are not playing to escape - they are playing to pressure and kill Jason, and they are effective to the point of tipping the balance. 

So where some players went wrong, especially those who were already very self-assured in their gameplay, is that they tried to apply the tier lists (either in theory or in practice) to their matches but without applying the necessary playstyle (or the skills to implement it). So of course, one without the other isn't going to work. Not to mention, some players simply love their characters and are offended by any negativity towards them - which is frankly ridiculous, but true all the same. 

On the topic of AJ, based on what I know, Rydog placed Deborah higher as a repair specialist due to her higher luck stat which makes her more capable of defending herself. Again, we must apply everything within the context of combat-focused strategy; as Stealth has little bearing on the way that Jason and Counselors play according the the meta, it is not really a factor. Repairs are usually done under pressure while the rest of the team defends, as Jason is constantly checking objectives and will inevitably show up. Thus max repair + higher luck > AJ's lower repair + lower luck. I'm also not sure of the video you're referring to, but as Rydog hasn't been active for months, it would've been closer to release. In which case, I know firsthand that the ridicule that AJ players received was well-earned. It was all based on misguided Stealth gameplay, which you see less of these days as the game has progressed. 

6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

The issue with a tier list is that it can change wildly, so if you're not paying close attention to the meta then inevitably your list becomes obsolete. Rydog voted Chad highly because he could use the baseball bat up to a whopping five times. Well, in this current meta, Chad would essentially be worthless because the bat breaks on him in say one or two hits. Since Rydog's meta heavily favored counselors who could fight well, that means his entire tier list is screwed up now until the luck stat gets fixed. Furthermore, with counselors being nerfed repeatedly (thick skin no longer works against traps for instance, something that made Jenny more useful as a result), and Jason become more dangerous, I wonder how Rydog's tier list would work now?

Everything here is correct. But this is not something Rydog or anyone could've anticipated. Knowing the meta, however, we can still apply changes to it based on the current build to compensate for bugs and nerfs. The strategy behind it is solid, based on aggressive pressure and combat skills which are still just as viable. Tier lists are always subject to change due to balance updates, but that doesn't mean the thinking behind them is wrong, or that the strategy no longer works. We just update elements of the meta to match the current build. 

6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Tier lists are useful, but you have to accept the inevitability that you will piss people off, and sometimes it's because information you present to the public as "high tier" could potentially be wrong.

Personally I think it's kind of ridiculous that people get pissed off, and again I think one of the reasons for it is just character affinity. The way I approach it is I look at the tier list and judge whether the reasoning, strategy and data that supports it makes sense. If it doesn't then I ignore it, but if it does, then it's worth paying attention to. There are many ways to play a game, but only time determines which way is most effective. Based on what I've seen since release, the aggressive playstyle and supporting tier list (or basis for it) is the one that has proven itself thus far.

6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

TL;DR Don't create tier lists unless you plan on updating it constantly as well as thoroughly. And remember that people who main certain counselors/Jasons are going to have a much better understanding of them.

This I don't agree with. No one can predict what kind of updates a game will receive, they can only do the best with what they have, with the time that they have. No point in holding back information when now is the time that people are playing and interested in the game. Meta should always be approached with the mindset that it is constantly evolving, and just because parts of it no longer apply, doesn't mean the foundations of it aren't solid. The community just needs to maintain it. I also don't think that just because a player mains a certain character that it automatically makes them more knowledgeable - if their overall understanding of the gameplay is inadequate, they won't be of much benefit.

Apologies to the mods for a double-post. I do agree we're off-topic now too, so if you guys want to steer it back then I won't get in the way. 

 

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5 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

This thread has been derailed. Let's return it to talking about Part 7 Jason. If we want to talk about "meta, tier lists, etc." let's just relegate that discussion to its own thread please.

Like I said I won't get in the way, but since the thread naturally arrived at this point I don't think there's anything wrong if someone wants to respond to prior discussion. The J7 threads need to be merged anyway, this isn't the only one. 

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On 10/2/2017 at 4:06 PM, Chace Hollett said:

And Savini is overpowered. 

Oh really? Did they fix his +Weapon Strength?

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BUMP

Please sticky or pin (or whatever it's called) this thread because this is a problem that has gotten worse and it seems to have gotten completely ignored

I like that he's a challenge, and he was fun when he could at least break doors in 3 hits, but now it's ridiculous. 

Either remove him from the game or get it together. 

3 hits for the doors and +morph, and you'll never hear from me again about this.

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We're looking at Jason Part 7 and considering possible changes and/or tweaks that can be made on him.
There is nothing set in stone and we're still in discussions about it, but I'll be sure to take in all of your suggestions.

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3 minutes ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We're looking at Jason Part 7 and considering possible changes and/or tweaks that can be made on him.
There is nothing set in stone and we're still in discussions about it, but I'll be sure to take in all of your suggestions.

Anything specific you're looking at? I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions here but it might help if we knew what you are thinking about changing.

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4 minutes ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We're looking at Jason Part 7 and considering possible changes and/or tweaks that can be made on him.
There is nothing set in stone and we're still in discussions about it, but I'll be sure to take in all of your suggestions.

saw blade weed eater. 

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48 minutes ago, EvilElvenElvis said:

saw blade weed eater. 

Is that a weapon suggestion? Or are you just typing random words?

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I don't mind that he's slow. It makes him a little more unique. In the movie he was slow and caught runners because they ran out of stamina. Take Dr Crews death for instance. So if they were to change something, give him the ability to increase fear levels or something to help drain stamina particularly with high stamina counselors. It's an absolute nightmare trying to catch Vanessa and Tiffany.

If they don't want to go that route they could give him throwing knives as a strength. One hit puts them in limp mode. One of his earlier kills in the movie is throwing a sharp object into a guys back. We already have a walking Jason with a trap weakness. No need to have two of them.

So in other words, leave him slow, but find a way to make counselors slower when they are in his presence. That's how I would go about it.

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