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MuRdR

Problems with Removing TKing and a Proposal to Fix It

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F13 has been one of the most fun games that I've played and that's a testament to you and your team's work, but that fun fell off with the latest patch.  The removal of teamkilling in public matches has made over 50 percent of the games that I join almost unplayable.

Was there a problem with people trolling by teamkilling, sure.  But it was nothing compared to what we deal with now: helping Jason, holding the phone fuse, keys, battery, or gas, trapping people in rooms by blocking the doorway, and most importantly, the removal of team killing took away the realistic choice between killing or sacrificing someone else so that you get out alive.  

"Helping" Jason has become nearly unstoppable.  Prior to the patch, the team could take the player out and continue the game without someone relaying positions to Jason.  Now, as others on the forums have posted there is a recourse - report them.  Sure, but I'm not taking the time to record someone, upload it, send it to you, and HOPE that they get banned.  Even if they are banned, how long will it take? TKing them instantly solved the problem.

Holding the phone fuse, keys, battery, or gas is now a "Fun" way for trolls to ruin me and my team's game.  Sometimes, the person holding the item is doing so while helping Jason!  Once again, helping Jason and holding the items were easily taken care of prior to the patch.  Now?  I have to play the entire game without one method or two methods (phone and car/boat).  

Trapping people by blocking the doorway is among the most aggravating consequences of the patch.  Now, players will sit in a doorway, as a way of trolling.  With TKing, they'd be killed and I'd be able to go about my way.  Now I have to quit or try and wait them out and/or dodge Jason.

Finally, the realistic aspect, whichthe Dev team discussed as a reason for TKing at launch, is gone.  Everyone knows the situation that I'm describing; 4 seats and 5 counselors at the car, do I take one for the team or kill a fellow counselor out of selfishness and the need to survive. This was a great oversight by your team at the outset, now since people complained about one aspect of the game (TKing), we need to take it out?  I vehemently disagree with this situation.

So, what do we do?  I think a full re-institution of team killing is needed for public matches.  At this point, I won't be playing F13 until/if it is restored.  The game is just a waste of time to play, because of the new forms of trolling that have arisen since TKing was removed.

If your team is looking for a way to address TKing, then I'd suggest a system similar to that of SOCOM: US Navy Seals on PS2 and 3.  This game offered a voting system that allowed members in the lobby to vote out members who weren't playing, teamkilling, or trolling (A majority needed to vote the person out, I believe).  This is the PERFECT option to keep teamkilling, while also protecting against the abuses that it brings.

 

Thanks for reading everyone.  

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Oh the heady days of playstation 2 and 3, before professional trolls and the new way of getting kicks.

The problem with allowing is the never ending cycle of death and tking.

What if you shoot the driver's friend? What if they get mad the next round and come after you? Will you then go after them in the next round?

If they put one of yours in the hospital are you gonna put one of theirs in the morgue? When will the whole thing end? 

I have just not seen the rash of holding on to things that you say is happening. Maybe once or twice. What I am seeing is a rash of escapes and a sad little Jason wandering around trying to rethink his life choices.

I am also not seeing a rash of Jason helpers since this happened. In fact, I am not sure I have seen one.

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i myself have only seen one person in the last 15 games i played since the patch try body blocking it only works if you mess around in a closed of room for to long so don't. get what you need and move on as for team killing removing it was the best choice games are way better now.  far as the body blocking goes all they would need to do to fix that is make it were no one can touch each other like a ghost type thing that way when they try stand in the door you just walk right through them.

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8 minutes ago, Definitelynotjason said:

Oh the heady days of playstation 2 and 3, before professional trolls and the new way of getting kicks.

The problem with allowing is the never ending cycle of death and tking.

What if you shoot the driver's friend? What if they get mad the next round and come after you? Will you then go after them in the next round?

If they put one of yours in the hospital are you gonna put one of theirs in the morgue? When will the whole thing end? 

I have just not seen the rash of holding on to things that you say is happening. Maybe once or twice. What I am seeing is a rash of escapes and a sad little Jason wandering around trying to rethink his life choices.

I am also not seeing a rash of Jason helpers since this happened. In fact, I am not sure I have seen one.

You must not be playing then? I don't know what to tell you, if you haven't seen these examples.

 

And if someone purposely teamkilled me? Yes, I'd TK them unless it's like the first 5 minutes of the game, then I'd just leave.

My point is that TKing, while abused by some, negated all of these other forms of trolling. 

I didn't even mention the fact that when Jason grabs a counselor, the others have no fear of wildly swinging with no hopes of hurting their teammates.  Making it harder to be Jason

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3 minutes ago, camp_voorhees said:

i myself have only seen one person in the last 15 games i played since the patch try body blocking it only works if you mess around in a closed of room for to long so don't. get what you need and move on as for team killing removing it was the best choice games are way better now.  far as the body blocking goes all they would need to do to fix that is make it were no one can touch each other like a ghost type thing that way when they try stand in the door you just walk right through them.

You reference one point that I made in a post with what, 3 different ones?  

TKing takes care of all of the other trolling types.  Plus, the voting system would take care of ALL trolling

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1 minute ago, MuRdR said:

You reference one point that I made in a post with what, 3 different ones?  

TKing takes care of all of the other trolling types.  Plus, the voting system would take care of ALL trolling

that's the problem though team killing was abused 80% of games that is a huge rise in team killing over the last month or 2 and that is why it is gone my point

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And of course private matches where friendly fire is still present and a host with integrity can end a game if it's filled with trolls or wait until conclusion and boot them.  I don't want to disagree but it seems that all off your solutions are implemented in a private match already.  I play Xbox so maybe the other platforms don't have an effective LFG system in which case I sympathize with you.

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When I see troll behaviour I just leave and find a new match. Sure I lose out on the XP, but if team killing were allowed and I killed a troll I'd lose the XP anyway. 

In the words of the immortal Bill & Ted, "Let's bail dude".

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there is a great community you could join on here just search for it i joined last night people play the game the way it was meant to be played.

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1 minute ago, camp_voorhees said:

that's the problem though team killing was abused 80% of games that is a huge rise in team killing over the last month or 2 and that is why it is gone my point

You just completely pulled that number out of your ass.  LOL.

I'm level I think...76 on Xbox, as of last night.  I've played hundreds of hours since the game came out.  Almost entirely in public lobbies.  I've been deliberately and actively teamkilled a handful of times, and only one real deliberate instance even stands out as memorable.  Mostly, I learned the ins and outs of the combat system, learned how to effectively defend myself, and anyone who thought about attacking me got the worse of it and was discouraged real quick.  Got run over with the car a few times - they can still do that, but again, you just learn some situational awareness, flash your light at them from the side of the road where you have trees for easy cover, don't go charging down the middle of the road at the car or something, getting run over is a non-issue.

I honestly don't know what to tell people who are convinced that there's vicious teamkilling in "80%" of matches or something.  I've played a TON of hours in this game and I've never seen it.  Gotten hacked a few times.  Certainly got blown away, by accident or design, by idiots with shotguns claiming they were trying to 'free' me when Jason had me in his grip.  But a little practice in the combat system, a little common sense and a little situational awareness and it's just never been an issue.  And beyond that I can only think of a handful of games where I've even SEEN notable instances of teamkilling that were directed at other players in the lobby.

Has absolutely happened a few times.  I reported a couple of idiots who were ganging up with Jason and teamkilling some of the rest of the lobby after I'd fixed the 2-seater and made a solo escape one round.  Recorded it, reported them, submitted the footage to Gun, and went to find a new lobby.  End of drama.  Have had WAY more problems since the game launch (fewer recently, obviously) with people abusing glitches and hiding out where they could run out the clock than I've ever seen people running around killing teammates willy-nilly.  

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maybe so but the truth is it was a problem that is a known fact and gun took care of it but as far as playing goes he could join the community and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

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21 minutes ago, camp_voorhees said:

maybe so but the truth is it was a problem that is a known fact and gun took care of it but as far as playing goes he could join the community and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

Is this an actual sentence?  Good lord.  

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28 minutes ago, Crooked Wookie said:

You just completely pulled that number out of your ass.  LOL.

I'm level I think...76 on Xbox, as of last night.  I've played hundreds of hours since the game came out.  Almost entirely in public lobbies.  I've been deliberately and actively teamkilled a handful of times, and only one real deliberate instance even stands out as memorable.  Mostly, I learned the ins and outs of the combat system, learned how to effectively defend myself, and anyone who thought about attacking me got the worse of it and was discouraged real quick.  Got run over with the car a few times - they can still do that, but again, you just learn some situational awareness, flash your light at them from the side of the road where you have trees for easy cover, don't go charging down the middle of the road at the car or something, getting run over is a non-issue.

I honestly don't know what to tell people who are convinced that there's vicious teamkilling in "80%" of matches or something.  I've played a TON of hours in this game and I've never seen it.  Gotten hacked a few times.  Certainly got blown away, by accident or design, by idiots with shotguns claiming they were trying to 'free' me when Jason had me in his grip.  But a little practice in the combat system, a little common sense and a little situational awareness and it's just never been an issue.  And beyond that I can only think of a handful of games where I've even SEEN notable instances of teamkilling that were directed at other players in the lobby.

Has absolutely happened a few times.  I reported a couple of idiots who were ganging up with Jason and teamkilling some of the rest of the lobby after I'd fixed the 2-seater and made a solo escape one round.  Recorded it, reported them, submitted the footage to Gun, and went to find a new lobby.  End of drama.  Have had WAY more problems since the game launch (fewer recently, obviously) with people abusing glitches and hiding out where they could run out the clock than I've ever seen people running around killing teammates willy-nilly.  

In my experience teamkilling was very infrequent (except for accidents) before they got rid of it in public matches. I've never seen an item hoarder. I've only seen a helper once. In general, the problem (while it exists) is simply not as prolific as we are led to believe. I've also never seen a blocker since the removal of teamkilling in public lobbies. I've been playing since launch and I'm approaching level 80 on Xbox.

I recommend:

1) Avoiding squeakers. Kids in general aren't bad, but the majority of toxicity seems to come from groups of kids messing around in parties with their friends.

2) If someone comes into a match griping/complaining/throwing around expletives, I've found they tend to be people to beware of.

3) Don't trust no mics who ignore you if you have a mic and are talking to them, or if you are trying to initiate communication (using a flashlight), and they just passively ignore you - but continue to follow you around. RED FLAG.

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2 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

In my experience teamkilling was very infrequent (except for accidents) before they got rid of it in public matches. I've never seen an item hoarder. I've only seen a helper once. In general, the problem (while it exists) is simply not as prolific as we are led to believe. I've also never seen a blocker since the removal of teamkilling in public lobbies. I've been playing since launch and I'm approaching level 80 on Xbox.

I recommend:

1) Avoiding squeakers. Kids in general aren't bad, but the majority of toxicity seems to come from groups of kids messing around in parties with their friends.

2) If someone comes into a match griping/complaining/throwing around expletives, I've found they tend to be people to beware of.

3) Don't trust no mics who ignore you if you have a mic and are talking to them, or if you are trying to initiate communication (using a flashlight), and they just passively ignore you - but continue to follow you around. RED FLAG.

If you discount the occasional idiot coming up and taking a swipe at me, the one really clear cut, deliberate instance of team-killing I've ever suffered, I was on Crystal Lake.  I'd just found gas down in the boathouse.  There was an AJ with a shotgun trailing along behind me and I didn't think much of it because I assumed she was going to cover me while I put the gas in.  Got about halfway up the road and saw Jason show up on the minimap - I think someone had screwed up putting in the battery and he showed up.  So I was crouching there, creeping forward to try and get a look to see when he was away from the car so I could swoop in and gas it up. 

And then BOOM - dead.  I had literally no idea what happened for a second and then I realized AJ, who had been crouch-creeping along behind me, just randomly stood up and shotgunned me in the back of the head.  No reason I could tell.  No idea why.   I was so baffled by how random it was I was kind of more bemused than angry, tbh.  

So yeah I agree, I think in general it's not nearly as prolific as people make it out to be.  I've seen it happen a few times, but a little combat know-how and some situational awareness go a LONG ways.  Keeping an eye on anyone who A. doesn't have a mic, B. insists on following you around, and C. doesn't appear to actively be DOING anything useful is a huge help, 100%.  

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i see you both are on xbox maybe that is why we have seen diffrent types of players but for me on ps4 it was way worse with the team killing and it has been better after the patch so far.

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58 minutes ago, MuRdR said:

You must not be playing then? I don't know what to tell you, if you haven't seen these examples.

 

And if someone purposely teamkilled me? Yes, I'd TK them unless it's like the first 5 minutes of the game, then I'd just leave.

My point is that TKing, while abused by some, negated all of these other forms of trolling. 

I didn't even mention the fact that when Jason grabs a counselor, the others have no fear of wildly swinging with no hopes of hurting their teammates.  Making it harder to be Jason

And my point was that these forms of trolling do not seem to be a serious issue. 

The only people talking about it are using it as an excuse to bring back tk. 

If it was happening a lot we would see a bunch of people asking for a fix, not asking for tk back. 

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Team killing was so bad on PS4!  Since the patch, they still try, I guess they didn't get the memo..lol  It makes you bloody but not hurt!  It is so stupid to me!  Bottom line, that is NOT the game/movie!!  DUH!  Like I said before, wait for "The Purge" the game to do your free for all killing spree!

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2 minutes ago, Definitelynotjason said:

And my point was that these forms of trolling do not seem to be a serious issue. 

The only people talking about it are using it as an excuse to bring back tk. 

If it was happening a lot we would see a bunch of people asking for a fix, not asking for tk back. 

TKing was the fix...

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1 minute ago, camp_voorhees said:

i see you both are on xbox maybe that is why we have seen diffrent types of players but for me on ps4 it was way worse with the team killing and it has been better after the patch so far.

Could be.  I don't know why PS4 would be exponentially worse for team-killing than Xbox, especially when Xbox has been pretty prone to abuse lagging behind on a lot of the patch rollouts.  But I guess anything is possible.  I just hear people talk about this happening game after game after game, nothing but teamkilling and honestly half the time they're so hyperbolic about it's hard to even fathom it working the way they make it sound.  

People start going off about team killers running around 'shotgunning the entire lobby to death...'  There are, to the best of my knowledge, 2 shotguns max in a given match; one that spawns and one Tommy shows up with, and the odds of a teamkiller getting their hands on BOTH from round to round seem...pretty slim.  Maybe they're somehow getting multiple counselors all clustered together around a car or something and trying to hit as many of them in the blast as possible, I guess?  But again, with shotguns being pretty scarce, 9 times out of 10 team killers had to melee you to death.

And almost all of the ones I've ever run into are frankly terrible at it.  They just run around swinging like crazy and can be chased off or killed by anyone who knows how to combat stance, block, then counter-attack.  Once you learned how to do that you were no longer easy prey and after taking a smack or two they'd run off and look for somebody easier to pick on.  It's just never been much of an issue for me.

 

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51 minutes ago, Crooked Wookie said:

You just completely pulled that number out of your ass.  LOL.

I'm level I think...76 on Xbox, as of last night.  I've played hundreds of hours since the game came out.  Almost entirely in public lobbies.  I've been deliberately and actively teamkilled a handful of times, and only one real deliberate instance even stands out as memorable.  Mostly, I learned the ins and outs of the combat system, learned how to effectively defend myself, and anyone who thought about attacking me got the worse of it and was discouraged real quick.  Got run over with the car a few times - they can still do that, but again, you just learn some situational awareness, flash your light at them from the side of the road where you have trees for easy cover, don't go charging down the middle of the road at the car or something, getting run over is a non-issue.

I honestly don't know what to tell people who are convinced that there's vicious teamkilling in "80%" of matches or something.  I've played a TON of hours in this game and I've never seen it.  Gotten hacked a few times.  Certainly got blown away, by accident or design, by idiots with shotguns claiming they were trying to 'free' me when Jason had me in his grip.  But a little practice in the combat system, a little common sense and a little situational awareness and it's just never been an issue.  And beyond that I can only think of a handful of games where I've even SEEN notable instances of teamkilling that were directed at other players in the lobby.

Has absolutely happened a few times.  I reported a couple of idiots who were ganging up with Jason and teamkilling some of the rest of the lobby after I'd fixed the 2-seater and made a solo escape one round.  Recorded it, reported them, submitted the footage to Gun, and went to find a new lobby.  End of drama.  Have had WAY more problems since the game launch (fewer recently, obviously) with people abusing glitches and hiding out where they could run out the clock than I've ever seen people running around killing teammates willy-nilly.  

Yes.  People getting out of the map or into spots where Jason can't get to them is a much bigger problem.

 

TKing solved so many problems when it came to trolling.  I don't know where all these people were playing that saw constant teamkilling.  Like you said, play with situational awareness.  

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1 minute ago, MuRdR said:

Yes.  People getting out of the map or into spots where Jason can't get to them is a much bigger problem.

 

TKing solved so many problems when it came to trolling.  I don't know where all these people were playing that saw constant teamkilling.  Like you said, play with situational awareness.  

I mean tbh, I was against them removing the team killing.  I still think it was a mistake and hope that once they figure out a better way to implement it where it's less attractive to trolls, they'll work it back into the game.  I had some real concerns about the fact that, by removing team killing, what they were essentially doing was making trolls invincible and giving them a whole new means by which to troll people.

Full disclosure, outside of a few videos, I've personally not seen much of what I was worried about happen in games I've been in, but I do think there remains serious potential for abuse.  I had a few instances of people grabbing the gas or the battery and carrying it all over and refusing to put it down so someone could install it before they toom teamkilling out.  I've been lucky not to see any of it in person since then, but what are you going to do if you've got the battery in, keys in your pocket, and Vanessa is running laps with the gas and refusing to put it down?

Honestly, though, outside of the shotgun it's hard for me to even fathom how people were getting teamkilled so much that they turned this into an epidemic.  I don't think I've ever seen a griefer who was GOOD at combat in the game and didn't just run up and take a massive heavy swing at you.  That's what combat stance is for.  Block it.  Dodge it.  Hit them back.  If they DO go into combat stance they can't move very fast so you just drop yours and take off.  They get bored or frustrated and decide you're not any fun to mess with and go find somebody else, who doesn't know how defend themselves and who starts yelling and losing their mind, raging about the fact they're being attacked and giving them the reaction they're looking for.

I am the last person on here to ever tell anybody "git gud, LOL" but a little combat stance know-how went a LONG way against teamkilling, that's all I'm saying.

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21 minutes ago, MuRdR said:

TKing was the fix...

i saw fairly frequent team killing before on pc. 

I have seen only a few Jason helpers, and they were all pre-patch. 

I have never seen the other things you are talking about. You are saying something is a problem and your solution is to return a massive problem. 

These boards saw 4 or 5 threads a day about how bad team killing was. 

We have seen 4 or 5 total posts since about what you are talking about and most turn out to be people who liked being able to kill random people in order to help themselves, not the altruistic beacons of light trying to solve our community's problems. 

The truth is, team killing is gone in public matches, likely forever. 

Show me something that deals with these new problems that isn't a system that was abused. 

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1. Team Killing.

Never had that many matches of this happening with melee weapons. It was always death by shotgun, player bear traps or car road kill.

Quick play = empty lobby 10x in a row before I get 1 match. The host rage quits every 2 games.

I stick to LFG post private matches. Nice feature. Sucks PS4 does not have something similar.

There is team killing enabled but I play with good groups of players. I block the trolls and hosts that love to rage quit. Only 1 game had a bear trap troll hiding in a cabin with important parts under a bed. I baited Jason over to him and his screams could be heard by Jason. He died. I escaped in the 2 seater. ?

Enable counselors to be able to walk through each other. Cars could push players out of the way without killing them. Player bear traps will not kill you.

 

2. Vote to kick option.

You thought team killing was a problem? Wait until a group of trolls kick you from a lobby they control.

Imagine fixing the car, boat, or calling the police successfully and suddenly you get vote kicked out of the game.

The players that kicked you made no effort to search for the parts or repair anything.

They spent the entire match hiding under a bed, in a closet, or exploit spot. 

Waiting for the perfect opportunity to kick you and steal the escape.

Your playing as Jason and the lobby vote kicks you for an easy win and fast XP.

Final answer to that is no way in hell do I ever want the that feature added.

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I believe it's fine where it is now. I just had a match on Packanack where a Deb tried to snipe me with a shotgun from the second level in the lodge as I was trying to let someone into the lodge. She then started swinging at me with a machete and all I could do was laugh. Second game on Higgins Haven a Vanessa out of nowhere started swinging the machete at me while I was dropping some items near the car (was Tiffany so I left the repairing for better characters) near the main lodge. Jason came and began walking towards me as if Vanessa wasn't there. It was early in the game so I was able to get away, but I then see that the gas and battery are put in. Seems that Vanessa and Jason were working together and when the car was heading down the road, I could see that same Vanessa escaping while I stayed in a cabin near the road.

Out of all the shenanigans I've faced on the PS4 version of this game before the TK patch, my fellow counselors either have mostly teamkilled me with a shotgun, worked with Jason to get me killed (best method has been letting me ride shotgun in a car, stopping at an escape point, and letting Jason grab me), or exploited glitches to make matches so boring to watch and feel worthless to get XP from (even matches where everything goes right your way but you still have 10 minutes of watching someone stay in a glitch for the rest of a match).

I have yet to face counselors who hold on to items. Most lobbies I join people want to fix the car ASAP (4-seater mostly if it's on the map). Sometimes what irks me is when people move items meant for the 2-seater or boat and transport it to the 4-seater. I'm still shocked that lobbies I join to this day don't know that items for vehicles are in the nearby cabins and not across the map. I guess I can understand for the small maps, but still I find counselors walking miles with an item meant for a vehicle that was near where they found said item.

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10 minutes ago, GhostWolfViking said:

1. Team Killing.

Never had that many matches of this happening with melee weapons. It was always death by shotgun, player bear traps or car road kill.

Quick play = empty lobby 10x in a row before I get 1 match. The host rage quits every 2 games.

I stick to LFG post private matches. Nice feature. Sucks PS4 does not have something similar.

There is team killing enabled but I play with good groups of players. I block the trolls and hosts that love to rage quit. Only 1 game had a bear trap troll hiding in a cabin with important parts under a bed. I baited Jason over to him and his screams could be heard by Jason. He died. I escaped in the 2 seater. ?

Enable counselors to be able to walk through each other. Cars could push players out of the way without killing them. Player bear traps will not kill you.

 

2. Vote to kick option.

You thought team killing was a problem? Wait until a group of trolls kick you from a lobby they control.

Imagine fixing the car, boat, or calling the police successfully and suddenly you get vote kicked out of the game.

The players that kicked you made no effort to search for the parts or repair anything.

They spent the entire match hiding under a bed, in a closet, or exploit spot. 

Waiting for the perfect opportunity to kick you and steal the escape.

Final answer to that is no way in hell do I ever want the that feature added.

Essentially, your opposition to the vote system can be applied to all aspects of the game.  

 

X could be abused so let's take it out. And I agree that most random TKing was done by shotgun, which means 1 person at max was killed, MAYBE 2 if they ccame back as Tommy Jarvis.


Also, if I'm in lobby controlled by a "group of trolls" why would I stay? That group of trolls will do whatever they want, so that isn't a good reason IMO

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