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I don't go random because I don't want to get caught playing as Vanessa. No. Thank. You.

And I just went against a good Jason not too long ago as A.J. I ran him in circles for a nice little while. I tried the same with another good Jason as Deborah and got killed early in the match.

So.....

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2 hours ago, dandop1984 said:

As Jason I kill Vanessa's for breakfast.

A good AJ player is hard to find and doesn't need speed or stamina to survive.

I am certain you do kill plenty of Vanessas easily. I am also sure that over 95% of the quick play population is bad at playing counselor (on Steam anyway), so... you know... you can kill almost everyone easily.

The testing by Rydog with Sense vs. zero fear counselors suggests no counselor is hard to find. Gameplay results with Sense spam (where you end Sense early then use it again quickly since ending it early made the cooldown lower) by objectives seem to agree with this testing. The only issue I've noticed with finding an A.J. is if the rare glitch occurs where Sense stops working.

2 hours ago, dandop1984 said:

Besides the spacing between cabins makes stamina a low benifit, low tier skill. 

Stamina is the 2nd best stat in solo queue.

Suppose someone else is being chased. You want to get all parts and loot asap so that the time they buy isn't wasted. Maybe you can even pop an objective notification to bring Jason to you and draw aggro off them before they die (or maybe you even want to sprint to another map sector to give them support asap.) How do you get the parts to the objective asap? Sprint constantly early game with high Speed and Stamina. With slow counselors (and even with low Stamina Chad to some extent), you're giving Jason more time to kill everyone before you begin strong objective pressure. You want to objective rush and remove any chance he has to breathe; give him the minimum amount of time possible for killing people and draining resources. Literally every second longer you take to get the parts to the objectives is an extra second Jason has to kill someone without having to defend.

Suppose you're being chased. The thing about close cabins doesn't really cut it after the Thick Skinned nerf. Window spam was fine to regen stamina for a good amount of time back when Thick Skinned maxed out at 50%, but it's bad now. Part 3, 6, and Savini can chunk you for 1/3 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned when you use a window (or more with knives.) So basically windows don't give all that easy stamina regen they used to give, and doors alone aren't really enough, so you have to hit Jason for your stamina when you're solo or else you'll run out of stamina. Savini and 6 have such long range weapons that you shouldn't be hitting them often unless they misplay. Try to hit Part 3 and you can get chunked for 1/4 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned. And of course you have to be in grab range to hit Jason (aside from if you hit him through a door/window/wall.) You really don't want to be in a position where you're forced into hitting Jason often, but you will be forced into that often with low Stamina.

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5 hours ago, konamijudge said:

I am certain you do kill plenty of Vanessas easily. I am also sure that over 95% of the quick play population is bad at playing counselor (on Steam anyway), so... you know... you can kill almost everyone easily.

The testing by Rydog with Sense vs. zero fear counselors suggests no counselor is hard to find. Gameplay results with Sense spam (where you end Sense early then use it again quickly since ending it early made the cooldown lower) by objectives seem to agree with this testing. The only issue I've noticed with finding an A.J. is if the rare glitch occurs where Sense stops working.

Stamina is the 2nd best stat in solo queue.

Suppose someone else is being chased. You want to get all parts and loot asap so that the time they buy isn't wasted. Maybe you can even pop an objective notification to bring Jason to you and draw aggro off them before they die (or maybe you even want to sprint to another map sector to give them support asap.) How do you get the parts to the objective asap? Sprint constantly early game with high Speed and Stamina. With slow counselors (and even with low Stamina Chad to some extent), you're giving Jason more time to kill everyone before you begin strong objective pressure. You want to objective rush and remove any chance he has to breathe; give him the minimum amount of time possible for killing people and draining resources. Literally every second longer you take to get the parts to the objectives is an extra second Jason has to kill someone without having to defend.

Suppose you're being chased. The thing about close cabins doesn't really cut it after the Thick Skinned nerf. Window spam was fine to regen stamina for a good amount of time back when Thick Skinned maxed out at 50%, but it's bad now. Part 3, 6, and Savini can chunk you for 1/3 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned when you use a window (or more with knives.) So basically windows don't give all that easy stamina regen they used to give, and doors alone aren't really enough, so you have to hit Jason for your stamina when you're solo or else you'll run out of stamina. Savini and 6 have such long range weapons that you shouldn't be hitting them often unless they misplay. Try to hit Part 3 and you can get chunked for 1/4 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned. And of course you have to be in grab range to hit Jason (aside from if you hit him through a door/window/wall.) You really don't want to be in a position where you're forced into hitting Jason often, but you will be forced into that often with low Stamina.

I mainly play private matches. And pick off Vanessa's due to her noise pings. She's easy to spot, and Stalk shift grab. Usually I rely on Vanessa to give up the location of other high tier councillors like AJ or Debororah, then focus on them, as I don't want them to get away knowing they can be difficult to find, and a threat when it comes to escaping.

I believe there's a bit of RNG involved with sense. Maybe it's a glitch but more often than not high composed characters fall under the radar, and spamming sense still drains it to 50%, and depending on the Jason it takes 10-15 seconds to refill.

Running from objective to objective has its importance for sure. And Vanessa is a good fighter no doubt in the right hands.

A slow high intelligence character will have a difficult time, but that's not how they should be played. Deborah should be close to objectives and same goes for AJ. Fortunately most car parts spawn within the objectives, so Debs or AJ don't have to run from Evergreen camp to blairs to find a car part. 

 

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Yeah, if we're just going to chalk up higher "stealth/composure" characters not showing up on sense as a "glitch", then were just having a fictional discussion. You're pretending assets are not actually providing benefit to make a dubious point.

"Darn that Vanessa, having so much more stamina. Glitch!"

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4 hours ago, SDA said:

Yeah, if we're just going to chalk up higher "stealth/composure" characters not showing up on sense as a "glitch", then were just having a fictional discussion. You're pretending assets are not actually providing benefit to make a dubious point.

Dubious point? Rydog did extensive testing on Sense. His methodology leaves little doubt. Hundreds of Sense flickers on every counselor at every fear level and inside and outside a cabin. The tests suggest Stealth and Composure don't affect Sense at all (beyond Composure indirectly affecting it through fear, which adds to the base radius of Sense when counselors are at zero fear.) The glitch also happens to make Sense not pick up Chad and Vanessa, too, if that's sufficient for you.

 

7 hours ago, dandop1984 said:

I mainly play private matches. And pick off Vanessa's due to her noise pings. She's easy to spot, and Stalk shift grab. Usually I rely on Vanessa to give up the location of other high tier councillors like AJ or Debororah, then focus on them, as I don't want them to get away knowing they can be difficult to find, and a threat when it comes to escaping.

I believe there's a bit of RNG involved with sense. Maybe it's a glitch but more often than not high composed characters fall under the radar, and spamming sense still drains it to 50%, and depending on the Jason it takes 10-15 seconds to refill.

Fortunately most car parts spawn within the objectives, so Debs or AJ don't have to run from Evergreen camp to blairs to find a car part. 

 

The out-of-minimap grabs are nice but counterable due to camera zoom-in, and well, Vanessas tend to be sprinting already when you start an attempt. If a Vanessa reveals a Stealth counselor's location, it was likely either pure coincidence, or they're a dedicated protector, or they're doing a temporary group-up to push an objective. There should be no statistical significance if it's a coincidence. If they're protecting/grouping for objective push, well that comes mostly down to player skill of both counselors. (Jason's skill isn't irrelevant, though it's less determinant.)

Sense has no RNG aside from what's given by perks. If they fall under the radar, they weren't in the (pretty big) radius, had Sense avoidance perk(s), were in a hiding spot, or were glitched. Most likely they had Sense avoid perks. At worst, you have (1-.6^(Number of times Sense is used)) chance to bypass those perks. Well, that or better depending on if multiple Sense avoid chances were programmed to be additive or multiplicative. The odds are definitely in Jason's favor. I just timed a refill for Part 3 with Sense weakness and it's 8-9 seconds for refill with him with a quick camera rotation.

Sectors are large enough that getting all the parts within one can take quite awhile. (Stamina is less valuable when you're pre-made, though, since you can rely on other people to actually do stuff without having to basically do all of it by yourself. It's only the 4th best stat in pre-made/private. In solo queue, you tend to have to do almost everything without help, on Steam anyway.)

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2 minutes ago, konamijudge said:

Dubious point? Rydog did extensive testing on Sense. His methodology leaves little doubt. Hundreds of Sense flickers on every counselor at every fear level and inside and outside a cabin. The tests suggest Stealth and Composure don't affect Sense at all (beyond Composure indirectly affecting it through fear, which adds to the base radius of Sense when counselors are at zero fear.) The glitch also happens to make Sense not pick up Chad and Vanessa, too, if that's sufficient for you.

 

The out-of-minimap grabs are nice but counterable due to camera zoom-in, and well, Vanessas tend to be sprinting already when you start an attempt. If a Vanessa reveals a Stealth counselor's location, it was likely either pure coincidence, or they're a dedicated protector, or they're doing a temporary group-up to push an objective. There should be no statistical significance if it's a coincidence. If they're protecting/grouping for objective push, well that comes mostly down to player skill of both counselors. (Jason's skill isn't irrelevant, though it's less determinant.)

Sense has no RNG aside from what's given by perks. If they fall under the radar, they weren't in the (pretty big) radius, had Sense avoidance perk(s), were in a hiding spot, or were glitched. Most likely they had Sense avoid perks. At worst, you have (1-.6^(Number of times Sense is used)) chance to bypass those perks. Well, that or better depending on if multiple Sense avoid chances were programmed to be additive or multiplicative. The odds are definitely in Jason's favor. I just timed a refill for Part 3 with Sense weakness and it's 8-9 seconds for refill with him with a quick camera rotation.

Sectors are large enough that getting all the parts within one can take quite awhile. (Stamina is less valuable when you're pre-made, though, since you can rely on other people to actually do stuff without having to basically do all of it by yourself. It's only the 4th best stat in pre-made/private. In solo queue, you tend to have to do almost everything without help, on Steam anyway.)

Yeah since high composed characters gain fear slower. The don't show up on Sense if there out of his sense radius Hence why Chads and Vanessa are easy targets pre rage.

I see noise pings in the direction of a cabin, or objective. I morph and see a bunch of stealth councillors and one Vanessa. Vanessa blew the cover. Happens game after game, and it always ends bad for the smart councillors.

Guess it depends on how you play. See you play in a pack. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. However if Vanessa wasn't in that group I may not of morphed to that spot and AJ or Deborah could of got the cops called. Jenny is a much better protector when it comes to hanging with stealth councillors. Vanessa is good if you're going for a Jason kill and you want to be found.

 

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20 minutes ago, dandop1984 said:

Yeah since high composed characters gain fear slower. The don't show up on Sense if there out of his sense radius Hence why Chads and Vanessa are easy targets pre rage.

I see noise pings in the direction of a cabin, or objective. I morph and see a bunch of stealth councillors and one Vanessa. Vanessa blew the cover. Happens game after game, and it always ends bad for the smart councillors.

Guess it depends on how you play. See you play in a pack. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. However if Vanessa wasn't in that group I may not of morphed to that spot and AJ or Deborah could of got the cops called. Jenny is a much better protector when it comes to hanging with stealth councillors. Vanessa is good if you're going for a Jason kill and you want to be found.

 

Yeah, composure affects fear directly, this isn't an "indirect effect", the composure is specifically why they're less afraid and able to move and recover stamina quicker. It would be like getting hit with a throwing knife and saying you indirectly lost health.

The "testing" given the number of variables in play with health, fear, location, team composition and the hundreds of different combinations available infer that it can't be truly comprehensive, especially if- as we see with perks having 0-9%- damage is literally doled out on a 0-100+ scale, since you can perk 10/10 beyond the scale.

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"The bottom line is that Composure and Stealth have nothing to do with Jason's ability to Sense you, beyond Composure influencing the rate at which you gain and lose Fear.

Higher Fear allows Jason to detect you from further away, and on top of this, his Sense radius naturally expands as the match goes on.

Here are screens that show the exact maximum distance at which Jason Part 2 can Sense a counselor, who is at the shotgun spawn inside Packanack Lodge, with all exit doors locked, lights and flashlight on, at zero Fear. I've also included screens for Jenny vs. +Sense and -Sense Jason traits, Chad and Jenny crouched indoors, outdoor comparison screens for A.J./Chad/Jenny (flashlight off and zero Fear), and Jenny outside of line-of-sight (which does not make any difference at all). Sense is unaffected by the flashlight.

Note: These screens were captured at equivalent points during the match, in-between the time that Jason unlocks Shift and Stalk. Based on this data, there is no significant difference for Jason's Sense detection range vs. any counselor, and Composure does not impact this [directly] one bit.

Everything stated in this section is equally true for all Jasons, including those with -Sense and +Sense traits.

[T]his data was all collected in private 1v1 matches, under controlled circumstances." - Quotes from Rydog's guide.

2 relevant corresponding screenshots he gives for A.J.:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/833579835671770788/8917827323ECEE90E5C2678A4F40109BA5AF71B0/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/833579835671770455/FB515472D724FA6BA3B999FB718968AF50DDFA24/

This radius is quite large, and it's before fear is gained and before the Sense radius naturally increases. Break the generators and the radius gets larger. You may hear a scream from A.J. when you break the generators, too. She's just not hard to find if she's close to an objective, and you should of course be checking the objectives quite frequently.

12 minutes ago, SDA said:

composure affects fear directly, this isn't an "indirect effect"

Composure directly affects fear. Fear directly adds to the pre-existing Sense radius. Composure has indirectly affected the radius. I said this... If you think this is incorrect use of English, I'll have to disagree strongly.

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I will look at the tests later, as its unfair for me to dump on them without really seeing how he reached his conclusions, but you make the point that his control point was the "start game, all ideal conditions", and that part makes sense... but it makes it hard to imagine it "at work" in actual game conditions, because it's never "controlled 1v1". The moment a regular game starts, every action by Jason/counselor has a different effect on any counselor, given the 10 separate frames onto which you can hang an almost infinite number of different perks, when you account for +/- effects. You'd need weeks, some specifically focused on dumping on yourself, to determine comprehensive effects. I'll see, though.

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1 hour ago, konamijudge said:

"The bottom line is that Composure and Stealth have nothing to do with Jason's ability to Sense you, beyond Composure influencing the rate at which you gain and lose Fear.

Higher Fear allows Jason to detect you from further away, and on top of this, his Sense radius naturally expands as the match goes on.

Here are screens that show the exact maximum distance at which Jason Part 2 can Sense a counselor, who is at the shotgun spawn inside Packanack Lodge, with all exit doors locked, lights and flashlight on, at zero Fear. I've also included screens for Jenny vs. +Sense and -Sense Jason traits, Chad and Jenny crouched indoors, outdoor comparison screens for A.J./Chad/Jenny (flashlight off and zero Fear), and Jenny outside of line-of-sight (which does not make any difference at all). Sense is unaffected by the flashlight.

Note: These screens were captured at equivalent points during the match, in-between the time that Jason unlocks Shift and Stalk. Based on this data, there is no significant difference for Jason's Sense detection range vs. any counselor, and Composure does not impact this [directly] one bit.

Everything stated in this section is equally true for all Jasons, including those with -Sense and +Sense traits.

[T]his data was all collected in private 1v1 matches, under controlled circumstances." - Quotes from Rydog's guide.

2 relevant corresponding screenshots he gives for A.J.:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/833579835671770788/8917827323ECEE90E5C2678A4F40109BA5AF71B0/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/833579835671770455/FB515472D724FA6BA3B999FB718968AF50DDFA24/

This radius is quite large, and it's before fear is gained and before the Sense radius naturally increases. Break the generators and the radius gets larger. You may hear a scream from A.J. when you break the generators, too. She's just not hard to find if she's close to an objective, and you should of course be checking the objectives quite frequently.

Composure directly affects fear. Fear directly adds to the pre-existing Sense radius. Composure has indirectly affected the radius. I said this... If you think this is incorrect use of English, I'll have to disagree strongly.

Yeah I don't think anyone is saying Composure directly affects Sense. Fear does that, but Composure does control how fast fear is gained, so naturally high composed characters have an early advantage, plus their stamina regains pretty fast early game.

Stamina stat  on the other hand has limited returns once rage kicks in as high fear is usually maxed by that point. Sure Vanessa has a large stamina pool, but from all the running and fighting you're  doing it's gonna refill very slowly, if you can even see your stamina pool by that point?

I guess we both just Cherry pick what stats are valuable to our play styles.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, konamijudge said:

I am certain you do kill plenty of Vanessas easily. I am also sure that over 95% of the quick play population is bad at playing counselor (on Steam anyway), so... you know... you can kill almost everyone easily.

The testing by Rydog with Sense vs. zero fear counselors suggests no counselor is hard to find. Gameplay results with Sense spam (where you end Sense early then use it again quickly since ending it early made the cooldown lower) by objectives seem to agree with this testing. The only issue I've noticed with finding an A.J. is if the rare glitch occurs where Sense stops working.

Stamina is the 2nd best stat in solo queue.

Suppose someone else is being chased. You want to get all parts and loot asap so that the time they buy isn't wasted. Maybe you can even pop an objective notification to bring Jason to you and draw aggro off them before they die (or maybe you even want to sprint to another map sector to give them support asap.) How do you get the parts to the objective asap? Sprint constantly early game with high Speed and Stamina. With slow counselors (and even with low Stamina Chad to some extent), you're giving Jason more time to kill everyone before you begin strong objective pressure. You want to objective rush and remove any chance he has to breathe; give him the minimum amount of time possible for killing people and draining resources. Literally every second longer you take to get the parts to the objectives is an extra second Jason has to kill someone without having to defend.

Suppose you're being chased. The thing about close cabins doesn't really cut it after the Thick Skinned nerf. Window spam was fine to regen stamina for a good amount of time back when Thick Skinned maxed out at 50%, but it's bad now. Part 3, 6, and Savini can chunk you for 1/3 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned when you use a window (or more with knives.) So basically windows don't give all that easy stamina regen they used to give, and doors alone aren't really enough, so you have to hit Jason for your stamina when you're solo or else you'll run out of stamina. Savini and 6 have such long range weapons that you shouldn't be hitting them often unless they misplay. Try to hit Part 3 and you can get chunked for 1/4 of your health bar with 20% Thick Skinned. And of course you have to be in grab range to hit Jason (aside from if you hit him through a door/window/wall.) You really don't want to be in a position where you're forced into hitting Jason often, but you will be forced into that often with low Stamina.

Regarding Vanessa it's not just people not knowing how to play as a counselor. I've encountered a lot of people who claim to regularly use her and were able to juke me a couple of times but still got killed easily despite being pretty good. In her case, even with her speed, if you're even slightly decent as Jason, she's easy to kill because speed is literally all she has. I've had standoffs with Vanessa's and she hits me and I don't even get stunned. You get someone like Buggzy and if he runs out of stamina, a well placed hit will give him enough time to rebuild stamina and take off because even though he's not a repair guy, he has a lot of strength to compensate for it. And if the player is especially good, he can rinse and repeat this tactic.

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3 hours ago, Emperiex said:

Regarding Vanessa it's not just people not knowing how to play as a counselor. I've encountered a lot of people who claim to regularly use her and were able to juke me a couple of times but still got killed easily despite being pretty good. In her case, even with her speed, if you're even slightly decent as Jason, she's easy to kill because speed is literally all she has. I've had standoffs with Vanessa's and she hits me and I don't even get stunned. You get someone like Buggzy and if he runs out of stamina, a well placed hit will give him enough time to rebuild stamina and take off because even though he's not a repair guy, he has a lot of strength to compensate for it. And if the player is especially good, he can rinse and repeat this tactic.

The current evidence on Luck and Strength's affect on stun chance is inconclusive. I lean towards the stats having no effect on stun chance, though it's possible they have an effect. (Supposing they do, Rydog did 50 Wrench hits per counselor on Jason and Vanessa stunned 35/50 times while Buggzy stunned 36/50, so there's no apparent difference. More data could certainly be used, though.) Their stun durations seem to be around the same. Speed is of course the most important stat for solo kiting because more than anything you need to dodge grabs and swings. 6 Luck vs. 2 means more long range Bat and Axe hits and also more stamina actually gained per hit made. Vanessa > Buggzy (and the rest of the cast) for solo kiting, no contest.

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One advantage A.J. does have over Deborah is the Lightfoot perk that allows A.J. to sprint silently, assuming that this feature still works as of the latest patch.

I've recently went back to playing as A.J., and I've been taking advantage of getting around quickly without being easily detected by sound blips.

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I prefer A.J, for whatever reason I've never really liked Deborah, I'll play Lachappa instead.

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Aj With 7/10 Composure Loves to scream a lot!

I have never heard Debby Make a Noise when the Lights were cut off.

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I LOVE AJ! She fits my play style. And she has great clothes, and an costume that reminds me of the Misfits "Evil never dies" EP. She's been my favorite fixer since I loaded the game. People that say stealth is useless are only partially correct, after rage you bet it is. But, early game if you play her right she has the goods to stay off radar. Most games I can get out before rage, and When in a lobby with Vanessa, Buggzy, and their loud selves running around she is even better as long as they stay away or even pull him from you. Deb is awesome too, but that stamina hurts her. I grab a wrench with AJ and that 1 luck is no biggie. I even like Shelly, been doing alright with him too.

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Just now, Redrum138 said:

I LOVE AJ! She fits my play style. And she has great clothes, and an costume that reminds me of the Misfits "Evil never dies" EP. She's been my favorite fixer since I loaded the game. People that say stealth is useless are only partially correct, after rage you bet it is. But, early game if you play her right she has the goods to stay off radar. Most games I can get out before rage, and When in a lobby with Vanessa, Buggzy, and their loud selves running around she is even better as long as they stay away or even pull him from you. Deb is awesome too, but that stamina hurts her. I grab a wrench with AJ and that 1 luck is no biggie. I even like Shelly, been doing alright with him too.

I had a Fun Time Fixing things and Making Jason angry With Shelly.

He got so salty that he ended up leaving (He was also the host)

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4 minutes ago, SmugDoka said:

I had a Fun Time Fixing things and Making Jason angry With Shelly.

He got so salty that he ended up leaving (He was also the host)

That sucks... To the salt mines for him! I've had some great games with Shelly sneaking up with a machete to damask while he's chasing someone else, then running away to grab a wrench. His repair is not too bad, he kicks out really well and his stealth helps. He's one of my favorites now. We've been playing all Debs in bunny costumes lately for a Easter bunny hunting theme, so much fun! I love Deb, AJ, Shelly and Fox for my fixers. But AJ will always be my favorite.

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A.J. (When I'm not Tiffany) I prefer lone wolfing it, and I don't particularly like talking to people on the mic. 

Deb just dresses so poorly, what is with that ugly sweater? Even LaChappa has a better sense of style. 

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1 hour ago, Pazuzu said:

Even LaChappa has a better sense of style. 

No.

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30 minutes ago, Qcici said:

No.

Nice looking vintage style polos paired with some sophisticated tweed pants? Very much so. Whereas even Beverly Goldberg would be hard pressed to try on Deb's nightmare of a sweater. (Maybe if it was on clearance at Gimbel's.) :P

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