Psychosocial23

Unbanning cheaters... Why?

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Someone had made a topic not too long ago slightly touching on this:

In there I mention how "the fear of God" (getting caught and banned for whatever) hasn't been instilled in the players and this doesn't help matters.  Now I know some people are trying to see this in a positive light, but it most likely will NOT be positive.  Anyone banned using exploits (doesn't matter if they are gone now) were probably habitually doing so and not just seen once and banned instantly.  These people will just come back and find the new ways they can ruin the experience for everyone else, then all of us here get to enjoy the wall of cheater or glitch abuser-based threads as soon as it all starts again.  Sorry if it's all so negative, but the public playerbase (not so much most of this community) has already shown, since launch to now, that they are more interested in trolling than playing the game (gotta get that internet fame).

 

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12 minutes ago, lHeartBreakerl said:

"Trolls will find a way"

Although usually they don't have help.

Exactly. It doesn't matter that the glitches they were using are gone. They are shitty players, and they will find another thing to exploit, and another person's game to ruin. They get off on it.

For those of us that have been lucky enough to have a mostly bug-free experience with the game, exploiters and cheaters have by far been the worse part of this experience. We got through the darkest days of that shit, I really have no desire to go back. I may just avoid the game for a bit and see how it all pans out, because I really don't want to deal with that shit again.

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Valve logic

"Play with friends"

I'm quite literally surprised some variation of this hasn't been spewed out yet by them.

While there is some truth to it. Not everybody has the time to setup games with friends and not everybody has friends.

There is that whole good sportsmanship club around here, but still...

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8 minutes ago, tyrant666 said:

Valve logic

"Play with friends"

I'm quite literally surprised some variation of this hasn't been spewed out yet by them.

While there is some @Truth to it. Not everybody has the time to setup games with friends and not everybody has friends.

There is that whole good sportsmanship club around here, but still...

You forgot to mention me!

Most of my friends that played have moved on to other games and the club usually only has a couple people playing when I check it. I've been resorting to quick play for a while now... I don't think I've played a single game where nobody quit.

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What the fuck?   Who made such an awful decision like this?

the number of players these people chased away from the game far exceeds any benefit you get from letting these assholes play again. 

There will always be ways to try to ruin fun for others.  From hiding parts, purposely destroying the car... I’ve even had someone in a small cabin lock the door and put a trap inside the cabin under the only window you can use to get in.   

Awful decision making and losing a ton of respect that they find it “hilarious”. 

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So let me posit this. 

You're playing a game and your friend tells you 'dude, check this out,' and shows you an exploit in your favorite game. That exploit gives you the ability to screw with other players in a way that they can't win against you. You utilize it because right then and there, you're getting enjoyment out of it. Sure...it's cheap fun and you don't know the other players...so you aren't really too worried about how much you might be hurting them. The payoff is immensely funny to you while you don't really care how much it detracts from everyone else. 

You do it because it's funny and because the game let you. You only do it once because after doing it, you realize it's also not letting you do much and the game isn't really that fun after utilizing said glitch so you stop and go back to playing. Heck, you even see others doing it and get frustrated that you're being duped. 

The next day you wake up and you're banned from the game because said glitch became a major issue. You only did it once, but because someone caught you doing it and reported you...well, you got a ban because the devs said 'ban.' 

 

Do you deserve at permanent ban? 

 

That's what we're doing. We're removing permanant bans from people that simply utilized known exploits that have since been fixed. These users took advantage of a situation, yes....but they were punished by having no access for several months. The hackers are perma-banned. The racists are perma-banned. The teamers are perma-banned. But to perma-ban people for walking on a roof for kicks isn't really our style. Some people did it maliciously and will again (we'll ban them in no time, I promise.) Others will have gotten the message we don't screw around. 

You're asking me to give a death penalty for speeding. We've made note previously that we would review bans and provide amnesty where we believe it was appropriate. A vast majority of the exploiters were younger people that believed it was 'funny,' and have had more than a slap in the wrist for what they did. We've fixed those step-height exploits and we're always working still to ensure they are going to be resolved before they become major issues. A ton of time has been spent to stop that kind of behavior. 

Maybe, just maybe....allow some of these folks the chance to enjoy the game they paid $40 and made the mistake of jumping on a bandwagon they shouldn't have. 

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@GunMedia_Ben That makes sense to me. From the OP it seemed like everyone was getting unbanned. I support your decision to give these players a second chance, and your explanation is totally valid reasoning.

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9 minutes ago, GunMedia_Ben said:

So let me posit this. 

You're playing a game and your friend tells you 'dude, check this out,' and shows you an exploit in your favorite game. That exploit gives you the ability to screw with other players in a way that they can't win against you. You utilize it because right then and there, you're getting enjoyment out of it. Sure...it's cheap fun and you don't know the other players...so you aren't really too worried about how much you might be hurting them. The payoff is immensely funny to you while you don't really care how much it detracts from everyone else. 

You do it because it's funny and because the game let you. You only do it once because after doing it, you realize it's also not letting you do much and the game isn't really that fun after utilizing said glitch so you stop and go back to playing. Heck, you even see others doing it and get frustrated that you're being duped. 

The next day you wake up and you're banned from the game because said glitch became a major issue. You only did it once, but because someone caught you doing it and reported you...well, you got a ban because the devs said 'ban.' 

 

Do you deserve at permanent ban? 

 

That's what we're doing. We're removing permanant bans from people that simply utilized known exploits that have since been fixed. These users took advantage of a situation, yes....but they were punished by having no access for several months. The hackers are perma-banned. The racists are perma-banned. The teamers are perma-banned. But to perma-ban people for walking on a roof for kicks isn't really our style. Some people did it maliciously and will again (we'll ban them in no time, I promise.) Others will have gotten the message we don't screw around. 

You're asking me to give a death penalty for speeding. We've made note previously that we would review bans and provide amnesty where we believe it was appropriate. A vast majority of the exploiters were younger people that believed it was 'funny,' and have had more than a slap in the wrist for what they did. We've fixed those step-height exploits and we're always working still to ensure they are going to be resolved before they become major issues. A ton of time has been spent to stop that kind of behavior. 

Maybe, just maybe....allow some of these folks the chance to enjoy the game they paid $40 and made the mistake of jumping on a bandwagon they shouldn't have. 

Sorry to say, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying - But don't you think that the same people who thought it was "funny" to exploit glitches will think it's equally funny to run people over with cars for lulz, or walk a battery into the woods and drop it there?

Trolls will find a way. Especially considering that the two methods of griefing I mentioned above aren't bannable offences.

I also think your "hilariously enough" bit on Steam was a really poor choice of words. I don't think anyone thinks this is hilarious.

I agree that the exploits should no longer be a problem...But if you don't think these people will grief in any other way they can, you're just being naive.

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2 minutes ago, AldermachXI said:

Sorry to say, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying - But don't you think that the same people who thought it was "funny" to exploit glitches will think it's equally funny to run people over with cars for lulz, or walk a battery into the woods and drop it there?

Trolls will find a way. Especially considering that the two methods of griefing I mentioned above aren't bannable offences.

I also think your "hilariously enough" bit on Steam was a really poor choice of words. I don't think anyone thinks this is hilarious.

I agree that the exploits should no longer be a problem...But if you don't think these people will grief in any other way they can, you're just being naive.

Yeah I'm sure some will be a problem, but a lot of them won't. I think this is a good move on their part. Plus like he said, if they do it again they'll be banned again. I doubt they would give them a third chance.

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2 minutes ago, Truth said:

Yeah I'm sure some will be a problem, but a lot of them won't. I think this is a good move on their part. Plus like he said, if they do it again they'll be banned again. I doubt they would give them a third chance.

Like I said, many of the new griefing methods aren't bannable offences - at least not yet. So unless they're planning on banning people who intentionally run over counselors or drop items in the woods intentionally (hard to prove unless you're spectating / recording), there will be new trolling methods on the horizon.

It is what it is though. Unban the glitch exploiters...let's see where this goes.

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If some turd was legitimately banned for playing like a goddamn turd, then they should STAY banned. It’s a slap in the face of us real players to unban them.

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But if they do it again they are out for good? Right @GunMedia_Ben?

I think this will blow up in our faces.

The 8 year old children that was banned because they used exploits while loudly harassing other players should not play f13 anyway.

 

Interesting that not be able to play a game is considered death penalty according to Ben.

Yes, I think they should be banned forever. This teaches them that you can be an asshole and get away with it.

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3 minutes ago, Fooobar said:

Interesting that not be able to play a game is considered death penalty according to Ben.

Yes, I think they should be banned forever. This teaches them that you can be an asshole and get away with it.

:) Alright, let's draw it further back from the extreme: How about likening it to confiscating someone's car after one speeding ticket?

I think Ben's point was that not everyone who exploited a glitch and got banned was doing it to intentionally ruin others' rounds. I'm sure there was a lot of "let's explore", without the full realization that the choice impacted others. For that reason, I welcome the potential wider player-base while realistically cautious that a few bad eggs will come back through, and when they do, it has become clear that the community can successfully utilize the report process.

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6 minutes ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

:) Alright, let's draw it further back from the extreme: How about likening it to confiscating someone's car after one speeding ticket?

I think Ben's point was that not everyone who exploited a glitch and got banned was doing it to intentionally ruin others' rounds. I'm sure there was a lot of "let's explore", without the full realization that the choice impacted others. For that reason, I welcome the potential wider player-base while realistically cautious that a few bad eggs will come back through, and when they do, it has become clear that the community can successfully utilize the report process.

Sure, in some cases the players will be back with no problem. But in some cases we will get back rhe cheating team killing assholes that now will run the car into a dead end, cooperate with Jason, still hide with new glitches and hide the gas.

At least implement a kick option before this.

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42 minutes ago, GunMedia_Ben said:

So let me posit this. 

You're playing a game and your friend tells you 'dude, check this out,' and shows you an exploit in your favorite game. That exploit gives you the ability to screw with other players in a way that they can't win against you. You utilize it because right then and there, you're getting enjoyment out of it. Sure...it's cheap fun and you don't know the other players...so you aren't really too worried about how much you might be hurting them. The payoff is immensely funny to you while you don't really care how much it detracts from everyone else. 

You do it because it's funny and because the game let you. You only do it once because after doing it, you realize it's also not letting you do much and the game isn't really that fun after utilizing said glitch so you stop and go back to playing. Heck, you even see others doing it and get frustrated that you're being duped. 

The next day you wake up and you're banned from the game because said glitch became a major issue. You only did it once, but because someone caught you doing it and reported you...well, you got a ban because the devs said 'ban.' 

 

Do you deserve at permanent ban?

I think that it is more of a case of the healthy herd not wanting those who won the Darwin award from being allow back to pollute the gene pool.

I'm following your logic. I get want you want to accomplish and I respect you are trying to be forgiving of lesser offenses. I would also say that some people's only function in life is to serve as a warning to others. Be careful of the riff raff you let into your home Ben. You're not the only one who lives there.

giphy.gif

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51 minutes ago, Fooobar said:

But if they do it again they are out for good? Right @GunMedia_Ben?

I think this will blow up in our faces.

The 8 year old children that was banned because they used exploits while loudly harassing other players should not play f13 anyway.

 

Interesting that not be able to play a game is considered death penalty according to Ben.

Yes, I think they should be banned forever. This teaches them that you can be an asshole and get away with it.

It's called an extreme and also a comparison. Banning is the ultimate consequence you can receive in gaming as the death penalty is the ultimate consequence you can face in life. The comparison was the punishment should fit the crime so to speak. Also be mindful not to double post. I have merged your posts. 

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Ok if they had actually said what kind of unbanning they were doing, I guess this topic wouldn't have been necessary. The post on the steam forums simply said they would be unbanning people, with no further explanation, making a lot of people think they were just purging the whole list.

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1 hour ago, GunMedia_Ben said:

So let me posit this. 

You're playing a game and your friend tells you 'dude, check this out,' and shows you an exploit in your favorite game. That exploit gives you the ability to screw with other players in a way that they can't win against you. You utilize it because right then and there, you're getting enjoyment out of it. Sure...it's cheap fun and you don't know the other players...so you aren't really too worried about how much you might be hurting them. The payoff is immensely funny to you while you don't really care how much it detracts from everyone else. 

You do it because it's funny and because the game let you. You only do it once because after doing it, you realize it's also not letting you do much and the game isn't really that fun after utilizing said glitch so you stop and go back to playing. Heck, you even see others doing it and get frustrated that you're being duped. 

The next day you wake up and you're banned from the game because said glitch became a major issue. You only did it once, but because someone caught you doing it and reported you...well, you got a ban because the devs said 'ban.' 

 

Do you deserve at permanent ban? 

 

That's what we're doing. We're removing permanant bans from people that simply utilized known exploits that have since been fixed. These users took advantage of a situation, yes....but they were punished by having no access for several months. The hackers are perma-banned. The racists are perma-banned. The teamers are perma-banned. But to perma-ban people for walking on a roof for kicks isn't really our style. Some people did it maliciously and will again (we'll ban them in no time, I promise.) Others will have gotten the message we don't screw around. 

You're asking me to give a death penalty for speeding. We've made note previously that we would review bans and provide amnesty where we believe it was appropriate. A vast majority of the exploiters were younger people that believed it was 'funny,' and have had more than a slap in the wrist for what they did. We've fixed those step-height exploits and we're always working still to ensure they are going to be resolved before they become major issues. A ton of time has been spent to stop that kind of behavior. 

Maybe, just maybe....allow some of these folks the chance to enjoy the game they paid $40 and made the mistake of jumping on a bandwagon they shouldn't have. 

So basically, you’re unbanning all the exploiters with the assumption that you’ll just reban those that do it again? That logic is silly. Every time I’ve come across an exploiter, they ran right back to the glitch spot at the start of every match. You’re just going to induce more reports that your team will need to sift through. With how maxed out your team is on work, can you guys even handle that?

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2 hours ago, GunMedia_Ben said:

So let me posit this. 

You're playing a game and your friend tells you 'dude, check this out,' and shows you an exploit in your favorite game. That exploit gives you the ability to screw with other players in a way that they can't win against you. You utilize it because right then and there, you're getting enjoyment out of it. Sure...it's cheap fun and you don't know the other players...so you aren't really too worried about how much you might be hurting them. The payoff is immensely funny to you while you don't really care how much it detracts from everyone else. 

You do it because it's funny and because the game let you. You only do it once because after doing it, you realize it's also not letting you do much and the game isn't really that fun after utilizing said glitch so you stop and go back to playing. Heck, you even see others doing it and get frustrated that you're being duped. 

The next day you wake up and you're banned from the game because said glitch became a major issue. You only did it once, but because someone caught you doing it and reported you...well, you got a ban because the devs said 'ban.' 

 

Do you deserve at permanent ban? 

 

That's what we're doing. We're removing permanant bans from people that simply utilized known exploits that have since been fixed. These users took advantage of a situation, yes....but they were punished by having no access for several months. The hackers are perma-banned. The racists are perma-banned. The teamers are perma-banned. But to perma-ban people for walking on a roof for kicks isn't really our style. Some people did it maliciously and will again (we'll ban them in no time, I promise.) Others will have gotten the message we don't screw around. 

You're asking me to give a death penalty for speeding. We've made note previously that we would review bans and provide amnesty where we believe it was appropriate. A vast majority of the exploiters were younger people that believed it was 'funny,' and have had more than a slap in the wrist for what they did. We've fixed those step-height exploits and we're always working still to ensure they are going to be resolved before they become major issues. A ton of time has been spent to stop that kind of behavior. 

Maybe, just maybe....allow some of these folks the chance to enjoy the game they paid $40 and made the mistake of jumping on a bandwagon they shouldn't have. 

When I was growing up, my parents taught me something important: Integrity. In other words, "Doing the right thing, even if no one is around to see it." The problem I have with people who intentionally abused glitches is that I cannot trust their integrity one bit. After all, if you do something once intentionally, you can certainly do it again. But I also understand forgiveness, that maybe some of these people have learned their lesson from months of being banned...but it still makes many of us uneasy Ben.

Think of it as having a dinner party but a friend of yours invites someone who was formally a criminal just released from prison not too long ago. You can shake hands with them, feel a bit at ease they're being nice as well as social, but you would still nontheless keep a wary eye on them to see if they give into their criminal urges once more. As a result, you can't really enjoy the dinner party because you're too busy watching your extravagant silver eating utensils to keep count of how many of them have gone missing thus far. I think the mistake you made Ben (or whoever that developer was on the Steam forum posted by the OP) was not appearing to treat it seriously at first when you said the glitch exploiters would be unbanned. If people saw the post you typed earlier, or something of that nature which made it appear you were being professional about it, many people might've felt a bit more comfortable. But as it is now, the only thing many people remember were games whose fun/immersion were ruined because someone thought it would be funny to camp in a spot that Jason couldn't reach for instance.

I remember a game I played a long time ago found ways to incorporate troublemakers back into the gaming community. League of Legends introduced a traditional system where being banned earned points, and if you accumulated too much at once it led to varying penalties. For instance, you couldn't communicate at all (the chat system was disabled), and the ban periods became more serious as time went on. So instead of a "one and done" deal, the bans simply got worse overtime with heavier restrictions. This system actually managed to change people for the better; over 50% of the people who were banned became productive members of the gaming society once again, and the system was praised for its ability to put the "Fear of God" in players who thought they could get away with intolerable offenses.

Right now, the game's penalty system doesn't have that kind of visibility. I believe the crew on Friday the 13th has treated bans seriously, but LoL made sure the system was well known to the public. At one point it even created a "tribunal" where players who were being reported were put on trial with their communications revealed to the jury (anyone could chime in to vote). When that happened, people realized they could actually be judged by their fellow peers, but at the same time their communications could also help reveal if the players at the time were unjustly targeting an individual for something that wasn't actually bad; this prevented malicious groups of players from ganging up on an individual they didn't like, sometimes for reasons like the targeted individual wasn't skilled at the game, and therefore a group of friends decided to get revenge by trying to get the unskilled player banned.

I don't know how a system like the tribunal would work, but nonetheless Riot (the group that made LoL) made the presence of judgment well known to its gaming community. Perhaps by doing something similar we would feel more at ease? I'm willing to play this game with people who once exploited glitches intentionally, but I do have to wonder how many of these former troublemakers are just going to continue doing what they did before. They don't really know they're on a leash, unless you have something prepared for them on the day they're unbanned.

Edited by Trident77
Spelling issues, fixed now.
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1 minute ago, TestedTwice said:

So basically, you’re unbanning all the exploiters with the assumption that you’ll just reban those that do it again? That logic is silly. Every time I’ve come across an exploiter, they ran right back to the glitch spot at the start of every match. You’re just going to induce more reports that your team will need to sift through. With how maxed out your team is on work, can you guys even handle that?

You're absolutely right, but I think this is more for the people that either didn't know they would get banned for it, or were just screwing around and got caught/reported. Now that a lot of the glitch spots have been fixed, why not give these players another chance? How would you feel if you got reported for some shit that you didn't realize was wrong? Wouldn't you want a second chance?

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if you're glitched on a roof flicking your flashlight and teabagging a jason who's been trying to throw knives at you for five minutes, you absolutely knew you were having a negative impact on others. 

and as far as glitchers being young... this game IS rated M, right? so either the glitcher is an adult and should know better or it's a kid, in which case, they shouldn't be playing the game anyway. 

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1 minute ago, matisangry said:

and as far as glitchers being young... this is game is rated M, right? so either the glitcher is an adult and should know better or it's a kid, in which case, they shouldn't be playing the game anyway. 

Exactly.

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2 minutes ago, matisangry said:

and as far as glitchers being young... this is game is rated M, right? so either the glitcher is an adult and should know better or it's a kid, in which case, they shouldn't be playing the game anyway. 

Also very true. Little kids playing this game annoy the shit out of me...

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14 minutes ago, Truth said:

You're absolutely right, but I think this is more for the people that either didn't know they would get banned for it, or were just screwing around and got caught/reported. Now that a lot of the glitch spots have been fixed, why not give these players another chance? How would you feel if you got reported for some shit that you didn't realize was wrong? Wouldn't you want a second chance?

Wouldn’t have happened to me. I knew that glitching on a roof was wrong. I play a game to play it; not sit on a roof for fifteen minutes. The morons that got themselves banned should’ve known better.

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