NoOneK9503

Poll: Should Jason's Grab be nerfed?

Jason's Grab needs to be nerfed?   57 members have voted

  1. 1. Your choice:

    • Yes, his Grab needs a cooldown or range reduction.
      20
    • No, his grab is fine the way it is. Jason does not need to fight. He needs to kill.
      37

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36 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Should Jason's Grab be nerfed? If yes, please comment below why! If no, do it the same way!

Edit: Better?

Edited by NoOneK9503

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They need to tweak the range of his grabs. Other than that they're fine.

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1 minute ago, lHeartBreakerl said:

They need to tweak the range of his grabs. Other than that they're fine.

Then how he'll catch the running Vanessas and Tiffanys?

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4 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

Then how he'll catch the running Vanessas and Tiffanys?

By making them run straight into his arms with smart usage of the stalk ability. ;)

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, lHeartBreakerl said:

They need to tweak the range of his grabs. Other than that they're fine.

Agreed x10. If Jason's grab range was the length of his arm, wonderful.  Too many times I've been dead and watched him go after other counselors and grab people 5+ yards away.  Meaning no way within arm's reach.   I think the poll question is a little flawed.    

"Then how he'll catch the running Vanessas and Tiffanys? "   Everyone runs out of stamina.  Keep after them.  Teleport and shift help too. 

Edited by va_ghost
to not have multiple posts

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I don't like the answers proposed. "Yes he needs a COOLDOWN???"" What like after attempting a grab he can't grab again for a certain time? No, we don't need that. Instead make his grab range shorter than his weapon range, and improve the hit detection for his weapons because there are times when I'm RIGHT on someone's ass as they are trying to run away, and Jasons weapons won't hit them even thought he weapon clearly clips through their character model.

In short: Reduce grab range and improve weapon range/hit detection.

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Honestly, I think the "long range" grab is actually a lag thing, think about it, if when the player clicks "grab" when the counselor is within range, but it doesnt execute until they are like 3-4 steps ahead, it might just be the game thinking that the grab was made because they counselor was still "in range"

 

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his grab is probably fine but sometimes his grab is like triple his arm haha but i think its a lag thing i've one time gotten face to face with a jason and i kept avoiding his grab and i was literally right on his face and i was just moving left to right avoiding his grab really funny and hilarious but there are times when i'm running and i know for a FACT he won't grab me and he just grabs me with a super extension lol but i'm sure its like a lag thing FeelsBadMan

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10 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I don't like the answers proposed. "Yes he needs a COOLDOWN???"" What like after attempting a grab he can't grab again for a certain time? No, we don't need that. Instead make his grab range shorter than his weapon range, and improve the hit detection for his weapons because there are times when I'm RIGHT on someone's ass as they are trying to run away, and Jasons weapons won't hit them even thought he weapon clearly clips through their character model.

In short: Reduce grab range and improve weapon range/hit detection.

I'm with  you on the grab cooldown.  A grab cooldown would be terrible.  People would spam Jason in groups constantly and make grab useless in those situations.  

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6 minutes ago, lazerus_86 said:

Honestly, I think the "long range" grab is actually a lag thing, think about it, if when the player clicks "grab" when the counselor is within range, but it doesnt execute until they are like 3-4 steps ahead, it might just be the game thinking that the grab was made because they counselor was still "in range"

 

It is not a lag issue, guaranteed. Evidence here:

You can see how ridiculously long it is, and both players had good ping.

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I don't like the answers proposed. "Yes he needs a COOLDOWN???"" What like after attempting a grab he can't grab again for a certain time? No, we don't need that. Instead make his grab range shorter than his weapon range, and improve the hit detection for his weapons because there are times when I'm RIGHT on someone's ass as they are trying to run away, and Jasons weapons won't hit them even thought he weapon clearly clips through their character model.

In short: Reduce grab range and improve weapon range/hit detection.

Then what will stop the grab spammers? And it doesn't need to be a 10 sec. cooldown. Why not a 5 or 4?

About reducing the grab's range to a shorter one than the weapon's range, that would make the grabs terribly more unpleasant to use. Just being able to use it while being very close to a counselor? With the risk of being stunned? <_<

@TimmyJarvis There is a thing called blocking in combat stance, ya know?

Edited by NoOneK9503

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5 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

Then what will stop the grab spammers? And it doesn't need to be a 10 sec. cooldown. Why not a 5 or 4?

About reducing the grab's range to a shorter one than the weapon's range, that would make the grabs terribly more unpleasant to use. Just being able to use it while being very close to a counselor? With the risk of being stunned? <_<

@TimmyJarvis There is a thing called blocking in combat stance, ya know?

I'm not following what you are suggesting.  How will blocking keep people from taking advantage of being unable to grab after an unsuccessful attempt due to running close and sprinting away in groups, and being able to hit him if he manages a grab anyway?  

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3 minutes ago, TimmyJarvis said:

I'm not following what you are suggesting.  How will blocking keep people from taking advantage of being unable to grab after an unsuccessful attempt due to running close and sprinting away in groups, and being able to hit him if he manages a grab anyway?  

First, blocking can or could be instantly be cancelled into a grab or weapon attack, so it can he good for trying to get close to a counselor.

Second, if you fail to grab someone and they run away from you, then better luck next time. Plan another strategy or follow them with Shift until the grab cooldown ends.

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I'm not sure why people have a problem with the grab range. I think it's fine. It's a big world (map) out there, and video games can only attempt to approach some semblance of realistic behavior, while balanced with a bit of tweaking to keep it fun, as well as compensated for lacking certain aspects of reality.

In reality, you can gauge things better, lean differently, extend limbs, et cetera, in order to better get in the way of another person and GRAB them.

In a video game, it's different.

I could be wrong, but I thought grab range was shorter, at some point in beta, and it wasn't as fun as when it was made a bit longer. Too often, you'd just miss, even though you know that Jason should have been able to grab that panicky counselor.

 

Just my opinion, but I think people get too caught up in the precise realism of graphical positions and animations. I've experienced that for years and years (such as in football games, where the animations may not always represent the most realistic circumstances, but the end result is better than if it was truly THAT precise and difficult to line up the different physical things you need to do).

 

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No need to nerf his grab when every single counselor you grab has a freakin pocket knife! :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, NoOneK9503 said:

Then what will stop the grab spammers? And it doesn't need to be a 10 sec. cooldown. Why not a 5 or 4?

About reducing the grab's range to a shorter one than the weapon's range, that would make the grabs terribly more unpleasant to use. Just being able to use it while being very close to a counselor? With the risk of being stunned? <_<

@TimmyJarvis There is a thing called blocking in combat stance, ya know?

A reduced grab range will be enough to stop most of the problems with grab spammers. If it is shorter than melee range, say 75% of melee range, 1. it would not feel as "cheap" like Jason's current "Sith lord force choke" grab, and 2. It would require prioritizing melee attacks to cripple them first if not taking them by surprise.

"Risk of being stunned," well Jason should be prioritizing chopping groups of counselors before trying to asphyxiate or head punch them all before their friends can help. Chop everyone down to crippled status and them mop up however you like.

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This has been discussed in so many different ways, with so many different ideas, etc.

The thing about it is its such a heated topic that I think the devs are scared to death to take risk with it and given the negative response to the window changes, which were things that probably weren't discussed anywhere NEAR the grab debate and didn't really warrant ANY change. I bet it might shy them away from making ANY changes to grab.

Risk is significant, but risk makes gameplay changes and tweaks worthwhile. If the devs simply do nothing with this, they'll always leave themselves open to criticism from those that feel Jason is too OP or the immersion is lacking, etc and if they tweak it in ANY fashion that benefits counselor, then its going to be seen as a big nerf to what feels like an underpowered Jason vs more competent skilled counselors and smaller maps where Jason can literally be stunned by looking at Chad's speedo or Tiffany's fat ass.

So...what to do?

1. Nerf range

2. Make grabs a skill check event for counselor so they have a chance to escape without knives

3. Add cooldown out of shift for grabs only

You must realize in every scenario, there needs to be some sort of counter balance for Jason, otherwise why grab anymore? How would he kill quicker counselors who cabin hop for 20 minutes, making stalk literally useless when the counselor knows Jason has to go on the offensive...or they win?

1. Nerfing the range would require all melee weapons to have buffed range or weapon strength itself would have to be modified for each and every Jason to accommodate the thick skin, multiple med spray nonsense that allows counselors to tank close range attacks by Jason

Say

+ Weapon Strength - Jason kills all counselors in two swings regardless of said perks

Neutral Weapon Strength - Jason kills all counselors in 3 swings regardless of said perks

- Weapon Strength - Jason kills all counselors in 4 swings regardless of said perks

Thick skin would no longer apply to Jason's melee attacks, only traps, windows and falling out of high windows

2. Making grabs a skill check event is something I and other vocal minority types have lobbied for. The same idea like repairs and whatnot, only high composure and high strength would matter FAR MORE. With high composure means the skill checks are slower and easier. With high strength means there are less skill checks to worry about. With low composure, the skill checks are faster and harder. With low strength, the skill checks are more. To allow some room for error, the counselors are allowed to fail 2 skill checks, but if you fail a 3rd skill check, Jason gets to execute a grab kill regardless. To balance the fact that counselors would literally be able to free others while they sit there in the skill check with Jason holding them. The counselors would no longer be able to free others from Jasons grasp. Its entirely in the hands of said counselor to escape themselves.

Those drastic changes might prove to be too controversial, but it would also keep counselors from wanting to straddle Jason in a circle when they can no longer help each other when grabbed. Maybe you add in a 3 second cooldown between grabs here as a trade off too, but nothing longer than that.

3. Adding a cooldown is sensible, but again, there needs to be some kind of trade. Maybe the counselor stumbles more since you know...Jason is RIGHT THERE!? Or again, buffing his melee range seems sensible enough

 

 

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38 minutes ago, tyrant666 said:

You must realize in every scenario, there needs to be some sort of counter balance for Jason, otherwise why grab anymore? How would he kill quicker counselors who cabin hop for 20 minutes, making stalk literally useless when the counselor knows Jason has to go on the offensive...or they win?

1. Nerfing the range would require all melee weapons to have buffed range or weapon strength itself would have to be modified for each and every Jason to accommodate the thick skin, multiple med spray nonsense that allows counselors to tank close range attacks by Jason

 

Jason's melee hit detection is already kind of wack. Just today I was chopping at a Kenny limping away from me and could not hit him as long as he kept moving forward, even when I was right on his ass, however, I could grab him with Jason's magnetic grip. So really all we need to do is improve melee hit detection and nerf the range of grab and badabing badaboom, it would be practically perfect. No need for any other changes.

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Each grab should subsequently take longer to trigger a kill. The first grab kill should be easy, but the ones that follow she take longer. That way Jason will have to utilize other ways to kill besides grabbing and slamming kill. It gets old, especially when the player only uses that as a way to kill. Many Jason's I've played with utilized 7 different kills and a combination of strategies, while most just shift grab because it's the only way they can get kills. 

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2 hours ago, BeautyNumber2 said:

Each grab should subsequently take longer to trigger a kill. The first grab kill should be easy, but the ones that follow she take longer. That way Jason will have to utilize other ways to kill besides grabbing and slamming kill. It gets old, especially when the player only uses that as a way to kill. Many Jason's I've played with utilized 7 different kills and a combination of strategies, while most just shift grab because it's the only way they can get kills. 

Shift grabbing actually takes skill to do effectively against good counselors. If you get shift grabbed while you know Jason is right behind you, you deserve to get killed that way. It’s actually quite easy to avoid shift grabs if you keep an eye on Jason while he’s pursuing you. 

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Personally I think the mechanics are fine as they are. I voted no. However, I do agree the game could be made more interesting and movie-like, but nerfing grab itself wouldn't achieve that; it would only create more problems.

Quoting myself from Steam forums:

"If grab kills were made any harder, a lot of Jasons would just resort to slashing. Why bother taking a long route when 3 to 5 quick hits take you down.

No, if you want to change the way things are now, you should rather suggest they give Jason higher rewards for unique (enviromental) kills or penalties for using the same kills repeatedly. If the player doesn't care about XP or CP, there's little to be done, but it is still better than the alternative."

The biggest problem people seem to have with grabs is that there's no escape without a knife. The above would force any Jason interested in CP/XP to take a slightly longer route to the kill, giving a counselor a slightly longer time to wiggle away.

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9 hours ago, TestedTwice said:

Shift grabbing actually takes skill to do effectively against good counselors. If you get shift grabbed while you know Jason is right behind you, you deserve to get killed that way. It’s actually quite easy to avoid shift grabs if you keep an eye on Jason while he’s pursuing you. 

Shift grabbing is very easy, and if it's all you can do, that automatically shows that it doesn't take skill. In fact, whatever the majority of Jason's are doing to get kills exposes what is easiest for most players, which is shift grabbing. What actually takes skill is showcasing a variety of tactics that adjust to the players. 8/8 kills reliant on the same abilities and moves are worth less and are less satisfying than 5 deaths that Jason had to work for. While most players like to rely on the same moves, the most exciting and terrifying Jason's are tactful and unpredictable.

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On 10/6/2017 at 4:30 PM, Vaderspupil said:

No need to nerf his grab when every single counselor you grab has a freakin pocket knife! :rolleyes:

Since the last patch I'm lucky to find 1 knife, much less more than one, and knives are the only things you can disarm traps with which makes no sense so bye bye knife if I find one.  From a game design perspective giving the OP person a power with no defense (the knife) is not wise in the logn run.  More and more people will find the counselor position to be hopeless/untenable.  There has to be hope for survival/escape.  

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30 minutes ago, va_ghost said:

Since the last patch I'm lucky to find 1 knife, much less more than one, and knives are the only things you can disarm traps with which makes no sense so bye bye knife if I find one.  From a game design perspective giving the OP person a power with no defense (the knife) is not wise in the logn run.  More and more people will find the counselor position to be hopeless/untenable.  There has to be hope for survival/escape.  

Somebody's getting them because as Jason I get stabbed regularly with 7-9 pocket knives.

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